Jesus, Yahweh, and "Heavenly Father" Re: Gnostic Christan

[Soul]

During the 10 to 12 years I spent deconverting from Christianity (during my 40s), I tried to embrace a view similar to the general Gnostic view described in the post below. In fact, the immorality (mass murder, slavery, mass rape), deceptions, and anti-human behavior of the OT biblegod, Yahweh, was the main issue leading to the transformation of my views. I couldn't remain in denial; I had to deal with the cognitive dissonance that was indoctrinated into me from birth.

For awhile, this Gnostic-like view seemed to make sense to me. The Heavenly Father whom Jesus revealed, and who is taught by the writers of the NT, certainly seems to be practically a polar opposite to the OT god, Yahweh. However, within a Gnostic Christian view, how do we understand Jesus' cleansing of the temple and calling it "my father's house" if it represents the religion of Moses and Yahweh-worship? And what about all the statements made by Jesus (and the NT writers) which ascribe to Jesus the deific titles and divine qualities associated with Yahweh in the OT? Was Jesus claiming that Yahweh was a false god, a usurper? And that Jesus himself was rightfully reclaiming all that? Or that Jesus was using all that spiritual imagery, and all that cultural religious language, to teach people the truth -- familiar terms but with new meanings, and a revelation of who the true God is? (And would someone confirm to me whether or not the Gnostics and some Christo-Pagans regard Jesus' Heavenly Father to be a being called "Abbas"?)

I could read more about this on the Gnostic websites. But I'd like to hear from Christian witches and other Christo-Pagans on this site what your views are. How do you blend Christian beliefs with Pagan beliefs, especially such biblical passages -- and in particular, what do you do with the OT god, Yahweh? And how do you view Jesus differently from Yahweh, if at all?

I admit that I know a lot less about Paganism than I do about Christianity. However, from what I do know of each, I don't see how anyone could have a positive view of Jesus and believe that the OT biblegod, Yahweh, is in any way good, or that Yahweh is the "Father" of Jesus. Then again, perhaps not everyone who views Jesus as a deity sees him as being all positive (light and love), but as a more complex being. Or perhaps we can view the Yahweh-to-Jesus transformation as a psychological-spiritual evolution in Jungian terms. (But I'll save that aspect for another thread.)

Thanks in advance.
Peace, and Blessed Be!

Soul

Note: I quoted the below post from an older thread:
http://everythingunderthemoon.net/forum ... ml#p211668

Some people have asked how it works. I have my own opinion on it and if any other Gnotics what to post theirs that's great. The Gnostic texts basically state that the "god" of the old testament is a false one. Christ was sent to tell people there is a main creative force or being he called Father and that the Holy Spirit is female.

What that means to me is that just as there are being like angels, demons, etc., that there are dieties.

Christ used faith and magic to feed the masses, raise the dead and cast out demons. He understood magic on another level but the same any witch uses.

Gnostic Christian believe in one creative force Father and feminine Holy Spirit. They believe in dieties which is Paganism.

I am also a witch. Someone who used herbs, chants, stones and items to focus energy for a desired outcome. None of my beliefs conflict for me anyway.

This link is for the Nag Hammadi Library. Works by the followers of Christ left out of the Holy Bible to leave the masses in the dark about dieties.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

[Yex]

As a Christo-Pagan, my view (not necessarily based on Gnosticism) is that the ancient Israelites were essentially a broken people, who suffered many hardships and lived in a world of war and oppression and pain. Thus, their view of God was seen through a lens of suffering and hardship, and as such, their view of God was that He was a God of wrath, war, and punishment. They were, however, a "chosen people", only insomuch as they were the people who were to receive Christ, the embodiment of unconditional Love, spiritual perfection, an avatar of Peace. So in a sense, their narrow-minded depiction of God was born out of necessity; they as a people had to survive through a time of hardship and war, so that they could bear Love incarnate, and as such, their theology was based on racialism and extremism. All of that was negated, however, when Jesus finally came and made clear that the Way is Love.

[Shub Niggurath]

This is an interesting topic. I'm not a christo-pagan nor a christian witch but I like being more or less educated when it comes to religions. So I thought I'd add a few things that I know of.
First of all, I've got to highly disagree with everything that was in Ula's quoted post. I understand she must've based her opinions on the gnosis.org site but that either means that the site is not too reliable or there was some serious misunderstanding there.
Basically, Jesus came to tell people that their understanding on YHVH was wrong on many levels, not that the god itself was "false". Also, Jesus wasn't trying to "rightfully reclaim" all that was assigned to YHVH - he tried to make people realize that YHVH is a "formula" that consists of all the creation, thus consists of himself as well. So Jesus was YHVH as much as any other matter in the universe is YHVH. And one of the branches of gnostic traditions got it right - kabbalah. If you're interested in getting some more info on that - especially the Tetragrammaton Formula - you can find a satisfactory amount of information on Wikipedia (even the "Abbas" explanation is there if you can read between the lines).
Anyway, if you want to get some more in depth information I highly reccommend A. Crowley's classic book "Magick in theory and practice" where he explains how all this jazz is related to magick and the order of the universe. You might find the chapters about Tetragrammaton, Alhim, Alim and I.A.O. Formulas especially interesting. I could explain it all here but it would take me ages to gather all the pieces together in one forum post, so I guess it's best if you do the research on that yourself. You'll be surprised how it's not related at all to the christian beliefs and christian understanding of the universe. It sincerely makes me laugh when I think about it

[Soul]

Yex,

Thanks for your reply (below). So, is your belief that the Israelite god, Yahweh, portrayed such as described is not the true God, revealed by Jesus? What you're describing seems like process theology (which I think is a valid analysis, but for more Jungian reasons). That is, basically, the way the OT god Yahweh is portrayed in the scriptures and in Judaic religion is a product of human perception -- or misperception, as it were.

However, are we then referring to the description of god as the misperception, by the Israelites, of the true God, or of some other god who is a provincial deity or perhaps a demiurge? Thanks for the further point about Jesus clarifying the nature of the True God to the people of his day. The contrast is still obvious. If we take the Israelites' perception of their deity as a misperception of the True God, to indicate process theology, then the onus is on the Judaic religious leaders and the OT writers. However, where in the NT are there any statements to indicate that this portrayal of the OT god is due to process theology? And where in the OT are there any statements that say essentially, "I am the Lord God, and you have totally misperceived me. I am a God of good, light, and love. But you have totally misrepresented me as being a god of war, violence, and antagonism toward humanity." There aren't any such statements. Yahweh displays basically the same character and behavior throughout the OT. So, the dichotomy persists between the OT god and the NT Heavenly Father. It makes either one or both the OT and/or NT suspect.

In order for me to view Jesus in a positive way and Christianity as valid at all, I have to agree with the Gnostic view or something similar to it.

I think I should have started this thread in the subforum "Christianity and Other Religious Faiths." And I will try not to respond at such length to other posts, so I don't discourage anyone from sharing their personal views. I don't want to seem judgmental toward any person, even if I state a contrasting view. I appreciate the civil and respectful tone of this site (what I've observed of it).

Thanks again, Yex, for the thought-provoking discussion.

Peace and Blessed Be,
Soul

As a Christo-Pagan, my view (not necessarily based on Gnosticism) is that the ancient Israelites were essentially a broken people, who suffered many hardships and lived in a world of war and oppression and pain. Thus, their view of God was seen through a lens of suffering and hardship, and as such, their view of God was that He was a God of wrath, war, and punishment. They were, however, a "chosen people", only insomuch as they were the people who were to receive Christ, the embodiment of unconditional Love, spiritual perfection, an avatar of Peace. So in a sense, their narrow-minded depiction of God was born out of necessity; they as a people had to survive through a time of hardship and war, so that they could bear Love incarnate, and as such, their theology was based on racialism and extremism. All of that was negated, however, when Jesus finally came and made clear that the Way is Love.

[Soul]

Levitating Cat,

Thanks for replying. I read some about the Tetragrammaton many years ago. I read some Jewish mystics, including Maimonides (but admittedly, I don't recall much of it). Thanks for reminding me of this information, and for mentioning the sources for further reading. I also noticed that when I copied Ula's original subject line, I failed to correct the misspelling, "Gnostic Christan." (Maybe one of the Mods can correct the spelling.) I would be interested in your own understanding about how all this is noticeably unrelated to Christianity. Maybe after I get some more feedback from Christian Witches and Christopagans, I can engage in a conversation about what you've mentioned.

Peace and Blessed Be,
Soul

This is an interesting topic. I'm not a christo-pagan nor a christian witch but I like being more or less educated when it comes to religions. So I thought I'd add a few things that I know of.
First of all, I've got to highly disagree with everything that was in Ula's quoted post. I understand she must've based her opinions on the gnosis.org site but that either means that the site is not too reliable or there was some serious misunderstanding there.
Basically, Jesus came to tell people that their understanding on YHVH was wrong on many levels, not that the god itself was "false". Also, Jesus wasn't trying to "rightfully reclaim" all that was assigned to YHVH - he tried to make people realize that YHVH is a "formula" that consists of all the creation, thus consists of himself as well. So Jesus was YHVH as much as any other matter in the universe is YHVH. And one of the branches of gnostic traditions got it right - kabbalah. If you're interested in getting some more info on that - especially the Tetragrammaton Formula - you can find a satisfactory amount of information on Wikipedia (even the "Abbas" explanation is there if you can read between the lines).
Anyway, if you want to get some more in depth information I highly reccommend A. Crowley's classic book "Magick in theory and practice" where he explains how all this jazz is related to magick and the order of the universe. You might find the chapters about Tetragrammaton, Alhim, Alim and I.A.O. Formulas especially interesting. I could explain it all here but it would take me ages to gather all the pieces together in one forum post, so I guess it's best if you do the research on that yourself. You'll be surprised how it's not related at all to the christian beliefs and christian understanding of the universe. It sincerely makes me laugh when I think about it