"Reaching on the outside" - what??

[Wanderer022]

Friends I would like your insight and help on this. As you all know I'm very much interested in witchcraft and magick, I also classify myself as an eclectic witch. Now I've joined a Facebook group in my country. All was well, until I decided to ask one of the members to teach me how to ground, center, shield. Of course I had heard it before, tried it before, but I wanted to know HOW to do it, what should I feel, what should I see. As you all know I'm quite new to my path, so I have plenty I want to learn still. In theory I'm fine, in practice I still need a lot of guidance.

So he taught me how to do this, but then after he asked me "Do you know yourself?", and I said yes. But he doesn't think so. So he keeps on saying "You should leave witchcraft and the gods until you spend time with yourself and know yourself." "But do you know yourself so deeply that you get scared yet??" That was the first part. I had spend two days pondering what the heck he's talking about. I've given him every available answer I can think of. I've answered who I am as a person and the qualities I have, I have answered what I consider my darkest self to be, I've even answered to him WHAT I think I am. (Inside the body.) Yet he is still unsatisfied.

Now secondly. The most irritating part. He said to me, that I'm on the wrong path, because I'm "reaching out" and not "in". I asked him what he meant by that. And he said I'm reaching out for knowledge thinking I will find happiness. I cannot comprehend this. This path I have chosen was chosen by me because I feel connected to it as a person. I am eclectic for the same reason. I take aboard the things that speak to me and my inner self. Is that not me then? Is it not me that chose this path? I don't know if he means it has to come naturally to me, and I shouldn't persue the written knowledge and methods but act on instinct? How will I act on instinct if I'm clueless? I knew nothing of these things before I researched them.

Oh. And this. (He's a shaman btw), when I told him what I consider myself to be. I take some parts of wicca but not all. I also really like the celts although I haven't read much about their beliefs yet, but I do believe they were in my ancestry
somewhere. He told me "I don't really approve of neo-paganism or wicca. Neither does the celts." That touched a nerve. What is he trying to tell me I'm not welcome there or something? That I somehow can't choose this path for myself? I decided I wanted to join because I might be able to get a mentor in technique and practice closer to home. I had already chosen my path and I decided to learn. Now it's somehow wrong? To choose? And to want? Of course there are others in this group...with differing views. Different paths. But he got on every last one of my nerves, and his questions made me ponder my own sanity so much that I had a splitting headache for two days straight.

Le sigh. What do you all make of this?

[Katrinkah]

I get the whole looking in thing but who is he to say that you aren't? Sounds like he may be speaking from his ego. Try speaking things out loud and paying attention to how your heart feels. Does what he said resonate in your heart chakra? Or does it not? If so, then you have something to meditate on. If not, no worries. His projections are not your problem

This is why I don't talk to people about my beliefs unless I know for sure that who I am speaking to is open minded and coming from a place of love....

[Wanderer022]

I get the whole looking in thing but who is he to say that you aren't? Sounds like he may be speaking from his ego. Try speaking things out loud and paying attention to how your heart feels. Does what he said resonate in your heart chakra? Or does it not? If so, then you have something to meditate on. If not, no worries. His projections are not your problem

This is why I don't talk to people about my beliefs unless I know for sure that who I am speaking to is open minded and coming from a place of love....

I'll answer you like this. Before I met this group/person I was very happy and content with where I'm going. I was happy with the way I worship the gods, sure I ask them for help, but I also try and do what it is I ask. As I read, you can't do a spell for money and then you never go buy a lotto ticket! After meeting this person, I just feel drained. I feel like I'm doing everything wrong. Like my school teacher is yelling at me for spelling my name wrong or something. My "upfront" thoughts are very confused now. But my "deepest" thoughts tell me I'm not wrong. They're telling me don't leave this behind, the gap in your life will return. I think perhaps I need to go sit quietly and realise that this person has his own path. Perhaps he's trying to put me in a box.

There are so many things I want to learn still. I know how to do spells theoretically. But I want to know what should I be feeling. Thinking. While doing them. How do I raise and direct energy. How should what I read translate into practice. What should I focus on feeling or accomplishing with my body itself. Simply, how do I "move" my energy? These are things I thought I could learn from them. I also went there with a mission. I asked the Goddess to help me find someone special. I envision myself married to my pagan hubby, celebrating with many pagan friends. Keeping a pagan shop together. That's a dream of my future. And at first my soul reason for reaching out to this group was to try and get that dream in motion I suppose. When I got there, I figured hey maybe they can teach me too? So yeah.

[Wanderer022]

I get the whole looking in thing but who is he to say that you aren't? Sounds like he may be speaking from his ego. Try speaking things out loud and paying attention to how your heart feels. Does what he said resonate in your heart chakra? Or does it not? If so, then you have something to meditate on. If not, no worries. His projections are not your problem

This is why I don't talk to people about my beliefs unless I know for sure that who I am speaking to is open minded and coming from a place of love....

Also, if you understand the reaching in thing please enlighten me. Because it's driving me nuts I don't understand what he means by that.

Oh, he also told me that I should never buy anything and make everything myself. While I get that, not all of us has the luxury of doing that with certain things. I just brought a book of shadows online from a pagan. Beautifully handcrafted, made from ostrich leather. He even personalises it for me. He's also making my athame. If I want a ritual tool or herbs or whatever that I can't make or acquire myself then I will buy it. I will also place it in the sun or moon and ask the god and goddess to bless and cleanse it of negative energy before I use it. If that's the wrong way then by all means please point out the right one. Lol, but in an educating manner, not a belittling one.

This is what happens when two Aries start bumping horns!

[Katrinkah]

Well I believe that we all have all the answers inside of us. That we all have the power of creation. And that we all have a piece of "God" inside of us. So when I try to speak to the divine I look inward. Lately I've been meditating on Ganesh but instead of projecting out towards him, I envision him inside me shining out in all directions. For me it feels like a void is being filled with divine light. But that's my personal experience. No one can tell you what to do, how to feel, or what your experience with the divine should be like. Nor should they. The only reason I reach "in" instead of "out" is because I know that I won't accidentally reach some sort of imposter when looking in. And it seems more insightful for me.

It sounds to me like this guys is being bossy though. Anytime someone is one sided about things, it's kinda a red flag for me. There is exceptions to every rule so how can anybody say "never do this" or "always do that". That is so limited that is bound to fail eventually. Don't let this guy discourage you from socializing though. Maybe you WILL meet your future pagan husband. Some people just come off very strong. Keep in mind that you know what you should do best. Maybe he was trying to say that but just sounded like a jerk in the process. Who knows? Just listen to your heart and be happy

[Wanderer022]

Well I believe that we all have all the answers inside of us. That we all have the power of creation. And that we all have a piece of "God" inside of us. So when I try to speak to the divine I look inward. Lately I've been meditating on Ganesh but instead of projecting out towards him, I envision him inside me shining out in all directions. For me it feels like a void is being filled with divine light. But that's my personal experience. No one can tell you what to do, how to feel, or what your experience with the divine should be like. Nor should they. The only reason I reach "in" instead of "out" is because I know that I won't accidentally reach some sort of imposter when looking in. And it seems more insightful for me.

It sounds to me like this guys is being bossy though. Anytime someone is one sided about things, it's kinda a red flag for me. There is exceptions to every rule so how can anybody say "never do this" or "always do that". That is so limited that is bound to fail eventually. Don't let this guy discourage you from socializing though. Maybe you WILL meet your future pagan husband. Some people just come off very strong. Keep in mind that you know what you should do best. Maybe he was trying to say that but just sounded like a jerk in the process. Who knows? Just listen to your heart and be happy

Perhaps he got this then when I told him I see the God and Goddess around me in nature. Perhaps he thought that's the only place I see them. But I do realise I am a manifestation of them. For example, I am a manifestation of the Goddess simply by being a woman. But I also inherit some of Her personality. I am a manifestation of Cernunnos in the sense that my heart is wild. Just some examples. I'm not explaining everything.

[Katrinkah]

I'm a pantheist so I totally believe God is in nature as well Ya, maybe that guy misunderstood. Anyway, don't let it brood. All is well

[ThetaChoir]

I'm not sure why this guy keeps asking you to explain what YOU are, especially when it sounds to me like he's far more interested in trying to impress you with what he wants you to think HE is (some kind of "expert", at least in his own mind).

As I understand your original post, you were perfectly happy with your path, but simply wanted some advice on some specific spiritual techniques; now all of a sudden you are upset, drained, and confused. Not only does he not seem to be *helping* you on your path, he now seems to be positioning himself as an *obstacle* to your development. My opinion is that you should thank him for his time and input, and immediately cease communicating with him about your path.

You are not obligated to have to explain your innermost self to someone and continue to accept a never-ending stream of advice on all aspects of your chosen path. Unless you truly feel that you can still get something positive out of interacting with him, I'd move on. There will doubtless be plenty of other people along your path who will be willing to offer advice in a positive and helpful manner. This guy has fulfilled he purpose.

Good luck, and don't let him or anyone else make you doubt yourself!

-Daniel

[Wanderer022]

I'm not sure why this guy keeps asking you to explain what YOU are, especially when it sounds to me like he's far more interested in trying to impress you with what he wants you to think HE is (some kind of "expert", at least in his own mind).

As I understand your original post, you were perfectly happy with your path, but simply wanted some advice on some specific spiritual techniques; now all of a sudden you are upset, drained, and confused. Not only does he not seem to be *helping* you on your path, he now seems to be positioning himself as an *obstacle* to your development. My opinion is that you should thank him for his time and input, and immediately cease communicating with him about your path.

You are not obligated to have to explain your innermost self to someone and continue to accept a never-ending stream of advice on all aspects of your chosen path. Unless you truly feel that you can still get something positive out of interacting with him, I'd move on. There will doubtless be plenty of other people along your path who will be willing to offer advice in a positive and helpful manner. This guy has fulfilled he purpose.

Good luck, and don't let him or anyone else make you doubt yourself!

-Daniel

You are right and that's exactly what he did. He made me doubt myself. We are all on a whatsapp group and tend to chat in the group. They are all pagans. I think next time when I ask a question, I should focus on the question I asked. This person did give me great advice for grounding centering and shielding. It's when he started asking me other stuff that this started. So next time perhaps I should say "I appreciate you wanting to give your input, but all I really want is an answer to my question.".

We also talk about paganism in general. I think I should just be headstrong. If they start questioning my path, I can simply tell them that my path is my own and it's what makes me happy. We can agree to disagree on whatever they have to say about it.

[SnowCat]

You could very well be on the wrong path for him. That's okay, though, because it's your path, not his. My path is very informal, and very give and take with my pantheon. We work together, and we teach each other. Please don't get wrapped up in what one person says.

Snow

[Becks]

I'm not sure why this guy keeps asking you to explain what YOU are, especially when it sounds to me like he's far more interested in trying to impress you with what he wants you to think HE is (some kind of "expert", at least in his own mind).

As I understand your original post, you were perfectly happy with your path, but simply wanted some advice on some specific spiritual techniques; now all of a sudden you are upset, drained, and confused. Not only does he not seem to be *helping* you on your path, he now seems to be positioning himself as an *obstacle* to your development. My opinion is that you should thank him for his time and input, and immediately cease communicating with him about your path.
-Daniel

I agree 100% with this, and I agree with Snow. I would also add that my personal "alarm bells" are going off. Somebody who is that able to see your need, take power, and have you off balance trying madly to explain yourself could potentially be dangerous. You are not supported by this practitioner, and he is very invasive. I don't think it's ethical.

Many may not agree with me here, but as people seeking "esoteric" and "occult" knowledge I think we need to be mindful of others, and listen to our intuitions. I have met live supportive people on my path, and I have met unhealthy people who look for power from (or over) others. In my experience this path comes with potential for power and control and it's important to develop and hone your "people sense and power".

I support the suggestion to not engage him further on any level. That is what my "spidey sense" tells me. Be safe.

[ThetaChoir]

I think I should just be headstrong. If they start questioning my path, I can simply tell them that my path is my own and it's what makes me happy. We can agree to disagree on whatever they have to say about it.

Now you're talking! The fact that your path makes you happy is the only reason you need to stay on it.

I don't necessarily think this person is being intentionally malicious (though I can't rule it out, either), but I think that some people who are deeply insecure with their own path often feel the need to be "right" about spirituality, and this can often manifest itself in the need to try to control the spiritual paths of others.

In other words, he seems to need you to validate his choices by turning away from your own. Though he may have temporarily rattled you, it seems to me that in actuality, HE is the one who's really insecure about his path.

You are not supported by this practitioner, and he is very invasive. I don't think it's ethical.

Very succinctly put, and I totally agree.

[SpiritTalker]

Reaching out is to look outside yourself for the authority for your decisions. As Doreen Valiente wrote in the Star Goddess, if you don't find it within yourself, you will never find it without. If he got on every one of your last nerves, he made you look within. That's his job. He is telling you, IMO, that you are your own authority and pointing you inward by making you ask questions, to question yourself. That is a skill that shamans have...don't necessarily take what is said as telling you what to do, but more as jabbing a finger where it hurts to get you to ask yourself why, and to believe you know.

Whether the instruction given is intrusive, overbearing or unethical as relayed above, it is your decision when you know why you were so startled. If you were convinced of your path, why would his words rattle you? I think clarity is the opportunity this individual has brought to you. It will clarify your direction in time, and you may change your mind 100 times until your inner voice can be heard above all the racket. It is always ok to ask ourselves if someone's input is on target, to accept or delete, and add to our store of info.

I think You were on the right track when you mentioned using your instinct. How can you use it when you are clueless, you ask. Well, that's the point, isn't it? Instinct is the way were are made. We just have to learn to speak it's language, and recognize when it is operating. Find out how.

[SpiritTalker]

Oh, and as for his comment of not approving of neopaganism and Wicca, since these are new variations on a theme, it is not surprising that a shaman - the oldest path known and deeply rooted - does not approve of them. Even allegedly Truly traditional witches don't accept Wiccans, a path accredited to that "upstart" Gerald Gardner in the 1950s (tongue in cheek). Our "teachings" haven't been around long enough to establish roots. It must make him shudder to think of borrowing this and that piece meal from a smorgasbord menu. Separate the dabbling wannabes from the dedicants from the bound initiates...it's enough to make a Master weep (tongue in cheek, again.) We have to have a sense of humor to be on this path, no matter how dead serious we are in our pursuit,study and practice. My deepest apology if my comments have in any way offended. I am trying to express what I think were this fellow's meanings, not necessarily my own thoughts. :wink2:

[Wanderer022]

Reaching out is to look outside yourself for the authority for your decisions. As Doreen Valiente wrote in the Star Goddess, if you don't find it within yourself, you will never find it without. If he got on every one of your last nerves, he made you look within. That's his job. He is telling you, IMO, that you are your own authority and pointing you inward by making you ask questions, to question yourself. That is a skill that shamans have...don't necessarily take what is said as telling you what to do, but more as jabbing a finger where it hurts to get you to ask yourself why, and to believe you know.

Whether the instruction given is intrusive, overbearing or unethical as relayed above, it is your decision when you know why you were so startled. If you were convinced of your path, why would his words rattle you? I think clarity is the opportunity this individual has brought to you. It will clarify your direction in time, and you may change your mind 100 times until your inner voice can be heard above all the racket. It is always ok to ask ourselves if someone's input is on target, to accept or delete, and add to our store of info.

I think You were on the right track when you mentioned using your instinct. How can you use it when you are clueless, you ask. Well, that's the point, isn't it? Instinct is the way were are made. We just have to learn to speak it's language, and recognize when it is operating. Find out how.

I acted on instinct to research this path. So there's that. ... anyway. If he thinks I'm reaching out authority wise...well, he don't know Aries very well do he...

Oh and also...he's a "new" shaman... not an "old" one. So technically imo he has no right to judge.