Shamanic Wicca

[Nixie-Tartarus]

Just wondering about everyone's opinion on this practice and/or their experience with it. There is not a whole lot of info out there yet. However, I did just get this book, The Shamanic Witch, that I am currently reading. For some reason this really calls to me...

[Firebird]

My Celtic path involves many shamanistic practices. The most involved being the aspecting of a God form, where those in the group can seek counsel from the High Priest or Priestess who has taken on this God/dess aspect. So besides this very valuable oracle work other practices and exercises include path-working type meditations, shape-shifting, animal totems, the possible voluntary partaking of mind altering substances, plant lore for healing and community work.
I would be interested to hear what you think of the book, I haven't heard of this one. Perhaps you can write a review to put in our book review area?
BB, Firebird

[-Dark-Moon-]

Apologies I only just saw this post .... Is it the book by Christopher Penczak that you're reading? I haven't read this but like Firebird am of the opinion that incorporating Shamanic practices really enhance your ability to grapple with some metaphysical problems that don't really lend themselves to wicca or witchcraft. And path working is a truly wonderful spiritual practice.

[loona wynd]

Just wondering about everyone's opinion on this practice and/or their experience with it. There is not a whole lot of info out there yet. However, I did just get this book, The Shamanic Witch, that I am currently reading. For some reason this really calls to me...

I haven't specifically heard about Shamanic Wicca, but I have found and had experiences with Shamanic forms of witchcraft. The practice or style of witchcraft known as hedge witchcraft is Shamanic witchcraft. Traditional witchcraft is also very shamanic in nature. Shamanic witchcraft is a very powerful but also very difficult path. Its not one for every one. It involves a lot of tearing down the past and the previous self to be reborn.

[loona wynd]

Apologies I only just saw this post .... Is it the book by Christopher Penczak that you're reading?

It could be a different book. Penczak's book is titled The Shamanic Temple of Witchcraft and the book tje OP mentioned was called Shamanic witch. They are different books. It looks like they cover the same concepts and topics but I can't say for sure. I've only read Penczak's book.

I haven't read this but like Firebird am of the opinion that incorporating Shamanic practices really enhance your ability to grapple with some metaphysical problems that don't really lend themselves to wicca or witchcraft. And path working is a truly wonderful spiritual practice.

Wicca maybe not. Witchcraft yes. There are forms of witchcraft that deal heavily with trance work and spirit allies and the like. So while it may not nessecarilly work with Wicca, witchcraft perhaps is a different story.

[-Dark-Moon-]

Really, Loona, .... It surprises me a little that you say that. Im curious - why not Wicca?

I'm really not sure what distinction you're making there as you have not explained it... But I'll explain my view a little more if that helps.

Wicca, like (your term) 'traditional witchcraft' (not sure what you're referring to there exactly as there really aren't that many 'Witchcraft grimoires' prior to Uncle Gerald's writings) has predominantly European shamanic roots. Like shamanism, it's a nature/earth based experiential religion. Take away Mr Crowleys circle casting and the nod to the elements, and you are left with a focus on healing, fertility and personal transformation as exemplified by Shamanism. So I would respectfully challenge the view that Wicca is somehow exempt.

Whilst on the topic, may I ask your opinion regarding Penczaks book? Im interested to know what you think of his writing in general?

Blessings
Dark Moon

[loona wynd]

I've thought about how I was going to answer this post for a few days. This response is going to be long. So please bear with me. I respond by breaking up your post into various quotes as it allows me to address as few specific points individually much easier.

Really, Loona, .... It surprises me a little that you say that. Im curious - why not Wicca?

Wicca is a combination of Celtic holidays (Imbolc, Beltaine, Lugdanash, and Samhain are Celtic in origin),Norse Holidays (Mabon, Yule, Ostara, and Litha are Norse in Origin), and ceremonial magic. The fact that the rituals of Wicca require ceremonial magic makes it harder for shamanic trance states to be effective. Wiccan rituals have a specific structure to them that does not really allow for ecstasy in rituals. Its a form of Ceremonial Magic when you look right down at the core of the practice. The Gods are invoked to the circle rather than you traveling to meet them.

Wicca was crafted to be defined by specific structured rituals. The rituals are elaborate and complex. These ritual structures while they allow for powerful manifestations of the Gods in the circle, one is not going out of their body to experience the Gods. The Gods have manifested themselves via possession (invocation) of the High Priest and Priestess. The High Priest and Priestess may be in a shamanic trance- they may be out of their bodies while the Gods are present for the manifestation to be effective. The rest of the coven is not.

They are fully present in the circle. They are in a slightly altered state of mind (we'll call it ritual consciousness) where they can freely experience the Gods. This state is still in the body though as they still need to be completely aware of their surroundings due to the nature of the rituals being performed. Its dangerous for everyone to be out of their body during ritual because of the blades, the candles, and much more.

Wicca, like (your term) 'traditional witchcraft' (not sure what you're referring to there exactly as there really aren't that many 'Witchcraft grimoires' prior to Uncle Gerald's writings) has predominantly European shamanic roots.

Not exactly or not what anthropological research has shown. Gerald Gardner's story was that he was initiated into a traditional Witchcraft Coven (the New Forest Coven) by a woman named Old Dorothy (Dafo in some writings). The rituals he was handed were fragmentary. When he left the coven he ended up adding pieces here and there to make more complete or workable rituals. This is where the circle casting, the sabbat lore and much more came from. This is where he created Wicca.

Wicca then was defined by its rituals and practices. Wicca as a religion in records did not exist prior to Gerald Gardner creating the religion. Yes it is based on older traditions and concepts. However they did not exist molded together in the form of one religion until Gardner created the religion. By creating the new rituals and experienced he created a new religion. This new religion is experience based. The only way to have those experiences for the Gods was to perform specific rituals in specific ways. This is a tie into ceremonial magic and is the ceremonial nature of the religion. If the rites are not performed in the correct manner by Gardner's working you will not manifest the Gods and thus not have the experiences.

When Gardner's writings came out a witch war began. Robert Cocrane was rather vocal about how Wicca was not "real witchcraft" and the like. This was when various styles and types of witches began to fight for legitimacy. Alex Sanders was another person who fought publically about the title of Wicca and what was the right Witch, but Sanders founded another tradition of Wicca (as it has been found that he simply copied a Gardnerian BOS and added some of his own bits here and there).

Gardner was the first to get published with his works because until 1951 witchcraft was against the law in England. There was however published lore of other witches by folklorists. Charles Godfrey Leland published the Gospel of Aradia earlier than that. The Gospel of Aradia is a book of Italian Witchcraft and Folklore. He had also published other books on magical traditions and folklore. So while the books may not have been easy to find, there was evidence out there of witchcraft prior to Gerald Gardner.

Gardner even used Lelands work as a source for his inspiration. The esbats or moon rituals to the Goddess are based on the ritual to Diana as taught by Aradia. The Charge of the Goddess is almost directly from the Gospel of Aradia. This is one of the reasons people believe that Diana is the Goddess in Wicca. Diana is actually a Strega Goddess (Italian traditional witchcraft). Other forms of Dianic witchcraft have evolved some just focused on as taught by Aradia (her daughter) and some just Goddess worship in the name of Diana.

Like shamanism, it's a nature/earth based experiential religion.

It depends on which view you are taking. Wicca as created by Gerald Gardner was and remains a Fertility cult. By Fertility I don't necessarily mean sex and sex based cult (though that is why all of the rituals have sexual symbolism). Fertility here is basically about making sure that all life has what it needs to survive. It means the land, the animals, the plants, and humans as well. The focus of the religion is on the dynamic polarity that exists between Male and Female for creation. Its the balance of death and destruction for life and creation. This is one of the reasons power is transfered male to female through initaition in Traditional Wicca.

Gardner in the creation of his religion also established a few rules. These being that one has have linege traceable to him (as in who initiated who going male-female-male-ect back to Gardner). Another aspect was that the rituals had to be preserved in a specific manner. One had to use the rituals exactly as they were handed down to them, otherwise the experiences would not happen. There is an oathbound aspect (but that is not uncommon in initiatory mystery cults through out history). So initations and covens were a requirement.

That is traditional Wicca. For years I have argued that the above (traditional Coven practice traced to Gardner) was the only form of Wicca out there. The last two years however have lead me to believe that two styles of Wicca exist. The one which we can trace to Gardner and has strict rituals and experiences and must be initiatory and coven based and the solitary form that can be traced to Scott Cunningham's work Wicca for the Solitary practitioner.

Scott Cunninghams was the first to take the sexuality aspects of the religion and made it more generically focused on nature and the cycle of life. By opening the practice to solitaries Cunningham had to create an entirely new way of experiencing the Wiccan God and Goddess. No coven requirement meant that the normal ways of raising power would no longer work (based on multiple people and male/female working pairs). These new rituals and practices are directly inspired by the rituals he had experienced during his training prior to initiation but worked so that solitaries could practice. A new style and branch of the religion emerged.

Both the form created by Gardner and the form created by Cunningham are defined by their rituals or rather the way the Gods are worshiped. Both religions are highly ceremonial. One has elaborate directions and practices while the other is more simple. The calling of the elements, circle casting, invocations, and evocations remains though experienced and expressed differently. It is the same God and Goddess just experienced slightly differently due to context.

I do agree that it is a mystery experiential religion. The rites of Wicca are the gates to have the mystery experiences. The rites of Wicca are what allows the Wiccan to engage with the Gods and experience their presence. The Priest and Priestess of the Coven in Wiccan rituals become the Gods in ritual. In solitary experiences occasionally true invocation is worked where the God or Goddess is brought into the person performing the rite,otherwise evocation is used and the God and Goddess are called to simply be present outside of a person.

I don't agree that shamanism is a religion. Shamanism is a practice that doesn't belong to any one religion or spiritual path. There are shamanic elements in many paths. While Wicca itself has no Shamanic elements, witchcraft as a spiritual path does allow for that experience. In this fashion a Wiccan could have shamanic elements to their practice, however if they remove the rituals of Wicca (the ceremony it ceases to be Wicca and becomes something else).

Take away Mr Crowleys circle casting and the nod to the elements, and you are left with a focus on healing, fertility and personal transformation as exemplified by Shamanism. So I would respectfully challenge the view that Wicca is somehow exempt.

Remove the ceremonial elements and you have a form of witchcraft that may be similar to what Robert Cocrane teaches or was expressing in his opposition to Gerald Gardner. Traditional Witchcraft is a form of religious witchcraft that is more shamanic in nature. Its more about traveling into the spirit worlds yourself to experience the Gods and spirits rather than having them be manifested in a circle.

There are some similarities between Wicca and Traditional Witchcraft. The worship of a God and a Goddess, the belief in reincarnation, the 8 sabbats, and the use of magical practices to engage with deities and spirits. These are the common elements of various forms of religious witchcraft. The differences are in how those practices are used.

Traditional witchcraft as a whole does not believe in the need to create sacred space. It is believed that all of nature is sacred. So its not necessary to create sacred space for worship. While they may build a temple through the rite of casting the compass round, the concepts are entirely different. In the compass one is bringing themselves towards the underworld or realms of the God and Goddess of Fate/witchcraft. In circle casting one calls the elements there to create a space for the Gods and other spirits to manifest.

There is a style of witchcraft that does bridge the world of Traditional Witchcraft and Wiccan Witchcraft rather well. The ceremonial style of rituals found in Wicca remains (the circle casting and creation of sacred space). The offerings are still blessed and placed on the altar. The difference here is that the worship ritual where invocation is used is created to allow for a trance working where one leave the body to meet the Gods. So the foundation opening and closing is more Wicca but the meat is more traditional based. This form of religious witchcraft would be described as hedge witchcraft. The thing to note though is that it still is not Wicca persay because the invocation and evocation aspect of the ritual is changed to trance work. The center or working part is different thus a different religion.

Whilst on the topic, may I ask your opinion regarding Penczaks book?

I think its awesome. I find that it covers shamanism from both the perspective of native traditions as well as from that of a witch. I would say that you need to have the CD companion that goes with it in order to get the most out of the book. Though that is true for all of the books in the Temple series.

Going to the workshop for this book was life altering. I had a chance to work with him in person. It was wonderful. The exercises and lessons learned reach to me to this day. It was through that workshop and those experiences I knew where I wanted to go in my training and in my studies.

Im interested to know what you think of his writing in general?

hes very down to earth. I actually like his "advanced shamanism" book called The 13 Gates of Witchcraft because he was able to explore and discuss many topics he would not have been able to explore in a Llwellyn publication. When you combine The Shamanic Temple of Witchcraft and The 13 Gates of witchcraft you have the tools for a very powerful practice of hedge witchcraft.

It is important to note that he does not call himself nor the tradition Wiccan at all. There are Wiccan elements to the tradition (See the Outer Temple of Witchcraft for what I mean) but it is not Wiccan in general. He simply calls the tradition and his teachings witchcraft. Many people label him as a Wiccan author, but if you read what he has to say on the topic he does not consider himself Wiccan.

Blessings
Dark Moon

I hope this answered a few questions. I'm working hard on my tone. I know I have been questionable in my tone with my writing in the past. I tried very hard not to come across that way here.

[-Dark-Moon-]

If you think Wicca is a form of ceremonial magic, and not shamanic at all, then frankly I suspect you're not overly familiar with ceremonial magic, or shamanism for that matter. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong though, lol.

The whole premise of ceremonial magic is different to wicca, though they share some ritual structures, due to Gardner and Crowley being friends and all, but these were most likely erived from similar ancient sources. I suppose charge of the goddess could be an example of that.

As I said, apart from circle casting and the elements, the rest of wicca definitely incorporates practices that are shamanic, and these are similar to traditional witchcraft (vis a vie your example Strega/ria).

Since youre fond of quoting definitions...According to wiki....Shamanism is a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world and channel these transcendental energies into this world... A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters into a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing.

I cant be bothered splitting hairs, BUT....Sounds like stuff wiccans and witches do to me....

Forest? Trees?

Blessings
Dark Moon

[random417]

The rituals he was handed were fragmentary. When he left the coven he ended up adding pieces here and there to make more complete or workable rituals. This is where the circle casting, the sabbat lore and much more came from. This is where he created Wicca.

The whole premise of ceremonial magic is different to wicca, though they share some ritual structures, due to Gardner and Crowley being friends and all, but these were most likely erived from similar ancient sources. I suppose charge of the goddess could be an example of that.

Gardner was heavily influenced my Crowley, and parts of the Gardnerian BOS and the degree system is lifted directly from Crowley and Liber AL:
(From the Gardnerian 3rd degree):
"Therefore, whom we adore, we also invoke, by the power of the lifted lance." Invokes. "O circle of stars [kiss], whereof our Father is but the younger brother [kiss], "Marvel beyond imagination, soul of infinite space, before whom time is ashamed, the mind bewildered and understanding dark, not unto thee may we attain unless thine image be of love [kiss].

"Therefore, by seed and root, and stem and bud and leaf and flower and fruit do we invoke thee, O, Queen of space, O dew of light, O continuous one of the Heavens [kiss]. "Let it be ever thus, that men speak not of Thee as one, but as none, and let them not speak of thee at all, since thou art continuous, for thou art the point within the circle [kiss], which we adore [kiss], the fount of life without which we would not be [kiss]. "And in this way truly are erected the Holy Twin Pillars Boaz and Joachim [kisses breasts]. In beauty and strength were they erected, to the wonder and glory of all men."
(Eightfold Kiss: 3 points, Lips, 2 Breasts and back to lips; 5 points)
"O Secrets of secrets that art hidden in the being of all lives. Not thee do we adore, for that which adoreth is also thou. Thou art that and That am I [kiss].
"I am the flame that burns in every man, and in the core of every star [kiss].
"I am Life and the giver of Life, yet therefore is the knowledge of me the Knowledge of Death [kiss].
"I am alone, the Lord within ourselves whose name is Mystery of Mysteries [kiss].


Compared to selected passages of Liber AL vel Legis (the Book of the Law, centeral channeled holy text of Thelema):
AL 1:27. Then the priest answered & said unto the Queen of Space, kissing her lovely brows, and the dew of her light bathing his whole body in a sweet-smelling perfume of sweat: O Nuit, continuous one of Heaven, let it be ever thus; that men speak not of Thee as One but as None; and let them speak not of thee at all, since thou art continuous!
AL 2:5-6. Behold! the rituals of the old time are black. Let the evil ones be cast away; let the good ones be purged by the prophet! Then shall this Knowledge go aright.
I am the flame that burns in every heart of man, and in the core of every star. I am Life, and the giver of Life, yet therefore is theknowledge of me the knowledge of death.

The central portions of these 2 things are close enough that if we disregard the source, it appears more Thelemic than "Wiccan" This may offend some, but, without the lore of how Gardner recieved the teachings, what he actually presents as Wicca is nothing more than Thelema, dressed up with more nature focus that isn't opposed to the Thelemic view.

Well... Not exactly, but... The Book of the Law was recieved as holy text. Thelema was Crowley's interpretation of it. My radical idea is that Wicca was Gardners. Claiming origin to a previous secret group was something that was done all the time, so Gardner's traditional Witchcraft coven is likely about as true as Wescott and Anna Sprengel. Nothing wrong with that, it's what was done at the time.

Since youre fond of quoting definitions...According to wiki....Shamanism is a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world and channel these transcendental energies into this world... A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters into a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing.

I would say that definition actually closer defines magick than shamanism, because in our usage, shamanism is speaking to a specific ritual style. Now, this is off the cuff, and not particualarly thought out, but...

I would argue that all ritual induces an altered state of conciousness, because the contact with whatever gods, spirits, godforms, angels what have you occurs within this altered state.

Ritual style determines what methods one uses to induce said altered states. The way I see it, there are 4:
1. Meditation - purely meditational or mental excersises can be very powerful in invoking altered states, and most of us include meditational practices within our magickal work, even if we leave meditation outside of the circle.

2. Religion - The truly ecstatic religious experience transforms your normal conciousness. We all seek this, I think, but it's something that comes and goes as much as the Divine (however you view it) wishes as when you want it. That's not to say you can't seek contact on your own, but the experiences that create shifts in conciousness aren't entirely under our control.

3. Ritual - Repetition of sacred words or phrases, the actions of a ritual, these things create an altered state all on their own. This is the secret to Ceremonial or High Magick, and what the ceremonialist uses most often. The LBRP induces an altered state all on it's own, because I do it every day, as part of my practice. The ritual elements shift your conciousness because it's used to shifting with those things.

4. Shamanism - While the name of this style may change if I expand this to a full paper (I write for my Order quite a bit), most of what the uninitiated would view as shamanism would still fall here. Drumming and chanting, dance, song, and yes, the use of drugs all would fall under here.

Now, most magickal ritual includes more than one of these styles, but there does have to be room for them within the ritual itself. IF we take Wicca to mean that which was passed down by Gardner, I don't think he left enough room within the ritual itself for most of the shamanism things.

Anything looser than the horribly structured Gardnerian setting however, could and likely would contain elements of the shamanic style.

Sorry this is long, I debated for a long time about posting this, not wanting to offend anybody with the views on Gardner and Liber AL, but what the heck, the intention is to spark thought, not anger.

[random417]

Also, just as a side note. While I consider Liber AL to be my central religious text, I don't consider myself a Thelemite. I actually think what Gardner did with it is more beautiful AND more true to the text. Just saying

[-Dark-Moon-]

Id say it's all shamanic by that definition. Shamanism is, after all, an 'umbrella term'...

I think your post was great. We do welcome all perspectives presented respectfully.

Out of interest, random, are you in the camp that argues that Wicca was created as a kind of initiatory 'outer court'' for minervals who will eventually progress to Thelema?

[random417]

Id say it's all shamanic by that definition. Shamanism is, after all, an 'umbrella term'...

I think your post was great. We do welcome all perspectives presented respectfully.

Glad to hear it. Dealing with peoples faith can be touchy, and I know my view on this is a bit different.I was trying to make sure that I didn't offend anyone.

Out of interest, random, are you in the camp that argues that Wicca was created as a kind of initiatory 'outer court'' for minervals who will eventually progress to Thelema?

I don't quite buy that either. I think Wicca was Gardner's interpretation of AL, completely separate from Crowley's and Thelema. I believe that Gardner was inspired by AL, but unhappy with the direction Crowley took it. He would have taken JUST the Book of the Law, as a divinely channeled work, and separated it from Crowley's interpretation. Wicca was IMHO what Gardner believed was suggested as the path for the readers of AL. I think he saw exactly what many of todays readers see, which is that the text itself says a few things, but Thelema is just one interpretation of the texts, heavily influenced by Crowley's anger towards Christianity. What Gardner gives us is another option based on the text, that has nothing to do with Crowley other than the fact that Crowley was the receiver of the text.

[loona wynd]

If you think Wicca is a form of ceremonial magic, and not shamanic at all, then frankly I suspect you're not overly familiar with ceremonial magic, or shamanism for that matter. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong though, lol.

I will admit to not being as familiar with ceremonial magic as I am with the magic practiced and described in most witchcraft books. That being said I have read a bit on ceremonial magic. What follows is my understanding of both Ceremonial Magic and Shamanism from my studies and exploration of them both.

Ceremonial magic involves the invocation or evocation of various spirits and beings to help us acomplish our goals. Most ceremonial magic is centered around connection with the higherself, through ritual work. Its also about connecting to the Godhead. I have heard of ceremonial magic being used to cast spells for jobs and health because if those things are lacking one can't really focus on the other aspects of their life (their spirituality in this case). Most ceremonial magical practices have an influence of Christianity or Christian symbolism through the use of angelic forces and prayers. The LBRP for creating ritual space is a perfect example of this.

Shamanism is something that has been a part of my life forever, at least some of the core tenants have been. The belief in animisim (that all things have a spirit) is one thing that has been always in my life. The belief in the worlds of spirits has always been in my life as well. The practice of shamanism has not always been there, but an understanding of the spirits choosing the shaman has always been present. Shamanism is the practice of traveling to the spirit worlds to meet and interact with many different types of spirits. Some of the work may be healing, but its also been used for attacks (in tribal cultures), prosperity, and fertility.

The shamans were the intermediaries between the spirits and the villagers. They were recognized for their abilities to leave the body and interact with the spirits. They had an ability that the average person just did not have. The shaman today is still an intermediary between spirits and humanity as a whole just more on an individual case rather than a tribal base.

The two schools both practice magical rites. Both school interact with spirits. The methods they use are vastly different though. In one practice the spirits are called into the circle. There is a place created where you are between the worlds physically a place where gods and spirits can manifest temporarily. In the other school while a sacred place is create or at least cleansed to be prepared for working its not to create an in between place. The process here is to cleanse and remove any unhelpful energies. The work with the spirits is done in the spirit world. We travel into their world rather than having them travel here.

So while the work may be similar the methods are completely different. This is where forms of traditional witchcraft have tried to bridge the worlds. There are still structured rituals in traditional witchcraft, but the method is different. Instead of going within and calling the spirits to you in Traditional Witchcraft you still travel to them. The Gods are still invoked to the circle but in coven practice the rest of the coven is also in a trance state so everyone is there together.

The whole premise of ceremonial magic is different to wicca, though they share some ritual structures, due to Gardner and Crowley being friends and all, but these were most likely erived from similar ancient sources. I suppose charge of the goddess could be an example of that.

The charge of the Goddess is an invocation. It is the invocation to the Goddess of Wicca. It is very similar to the rite practiced and taught by Aradia in the Gospel of Aradia but the context is slightly different. The esbat in Wicca is essentially that ceremony in Aradia. This is the moon Goddess aspect.

The sabbats are from a mixture of Murry's witchcult theory, Traditional Witchcraft, Norse, and Celtic lore and practice. The way the sabbats are celebrated through elaborate ceremony invocking the Gods is an aspect of ceremonial magic. The circle casting itself is a variation on the LBRP which is a ritual of ceremonial magic. The invocations and drawing down of the Sun and Moon are ceremonial aspects of traditional witchcraft. Wicca is full of ceremonial magic.

As I said, apart from circle casting and the elements, the rest of wicca definitely incorporates practices that are shamanic, and these are similar to traditional witchcraft (vis a vie your example Strega/ria).

But that is the thing Wicca as I said before both traditional and modern solitary/eclectic styles are defined by their rituals. The circle casting, the elemental invocations, those are essential parts to Wiccan ritual. Remove those aspects and the practice is no longer Wicca. Its a form of religious witchcraft but not Wicca. Remove the circle, the evocation, and the invocations and you have a different thing entirely. That practice could be shamanic. I never argued that.

If you are saying that religious witchcraft with out the circle casting, the elemental evocations, and the invocations is shamanic or holds shamanic elements I couldn't agree with you more. That doesn't make it Wicca though. Wicca is its rituals as the rituals are the keys to experiencing the mysteries of Wicca. The invocations are how you experience the God and Goddess. The evocations are how you meet the elemental guardians and spirits that are part of Wicca.

The rituals of Hedge witchcraft are often of this type. Its often called Wicca flavored. The circle casting and evocations of the elements are part of this practice in some cases. The Gods are not nessecarilly invoked as one may opt for more trance work here. This would be basically using drumming, chants, pain, or any other numerous methods to reach shamanic trance. The difference between this and Wicca? The method of experiencing the spirits and the deities. Because the methods are different the mysteries will also be different.

Now a Wiccan can engage in shamanic rites outside of the rites of Wicca. They can practice the two and gain much spiritual insight and growth. The thing to keep in mind though is that the shamanic rites are not Wiccan rites and the Wiccan rites are not shamanic rites. They involve different methods of engaging spirit and are thus different practices. They can be worked seperatly but not together. This is more often than not where Wicca flavored hedge witchcraft comes into play.

Could they be meeting the same Gods? I hold that Wicca has a very specific set of deities. A triple Goddess (Maiden, mother, and Crone-the phases of the moon) and a two faced or two sided horned God (lord of the animals and lord of the Sun). In traditional Wicca they have specific names. As I have never been initiated into traditional Wicca I don't know the names nor would I be able to share them as that is part of the oath bound material. So yes it could be the same Gods. Can I say definitely yes and definitely no? Not at all. I can only speak from my experience which is that they are very similar if not the same.

I'll put it another way. Some one practicing Seax Wicca (Buckland's tradition) and some one who practices Germanic witchcraft are going to be worshiping the same Gods. The methods and rituals they use to worship those gods are going to be different. That is what makes them different religions. Not the different Gods, but the different methods of worship and different views of the lore. Both groups are going to experience the mysteries of the Gods in vastly different ways.

Since youre fond of quoting definitions...According to wiki....Shamanism is a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world and channel these transcendental energies into this world... A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters into a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing.

I agree with the definition of reaching altered states of consciousness. Trance work in the spirit worlds is an altered state of consciousness. One can not interact with spirits on any level if they are not in some sort of altered state of consciousness. The interactions take place in the spirit world. The spirits have chosen the shaman for the task.

In shamanic work the shaman's spirit works with their spirit, their spirit guides, and the guides and spirit of their client for their ultimate goal what ever that may be. The shaman is going back and forth between the spirit world and the physical world throughout the treatment. So yes the shaman is channeling energy. Its method is different than magicians or witches though. Both of them are working forms of magic.

There is a definition of magic that is the ability to change consciousness at will. This is one definition put forth by many authors on both witchcraft and magic. If that is the definition of magic then shamans and witches both fit that category as do many other people and practices. While I do agree that there is a skill to changing consciousness at will, I wouldn't call it magic. I'd actually call that the use of psychic and mental abilities.

Magic to me is the practice of manipulating subtle energetic forces to achieve a specific goal or desire. These goals can be practical (money, health, love, protection, ect) or they can be spiritual (meeting guides, gods, developing psychic senses, ect). Its a mixture of energy in the world, emotional energy, spiritual energy, mental energy, physical energy, and the energetic forces of the symbols, plants, crystals, spirits, ect called on or involved in the spell. The act of mixing these energetic forces together and programing them all with a specific intent is magic.

I cant be bothered splitting hairs, BUT....Sounds like stuff wiccans and witches do to me....

The methods and the philosophies in both schools are different. That is what makes them different schools. Is there cross over? Sure. That doesn't make them the same nor does it mean that one can be in the other at the same time. Both are schools of magic and spirituality. Both have methods of engaging with spirits and deities. Both are perfectly valid schools of thought. Its just different methods and philosophies make for different practices. I've given several examples of how religious witchcraft and shamanism can exist. I've even explained Wiccan flavored shamanism through hedge witchcraft. Religious witchcraft does not have to be Wicca. While many forms share Wiccan elements, that does not make them the same thing.

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@ loona As a CM practitioner myself, I'd consider your definition to be pretty accurate, with the exception of one thing... kabbalah is very much a Ceremonial practice, and pathworkings and astral travel to the sepheroth is a almost essential part of that. Mind you, not every ceremonialist works kabbalah, and not every (magickal) kabbalist does the astral travel stuff, but imho, everyone that does kabbalah seriously should.

I would say that ceremonial magick is inherantly monotheistic, but I would say that the core beliefs are closer to Jewish beliefs than Christian. (There are exceptions to this, the Rosicrucians for example).

I would argue that underneath the veneer however, the beliefs attempt to transcend Abrahamic faiths... in the kabbalah for example, "God the Father" corresponds to Chessed, only about half way up the Tree of Life. Honestly, personally, that's below where the Wiccan concepts of God and Goddess lie on the Tree.

I am also an animist, of a sort. Hermetic philosophy teaches "all is mind" and it's the "mind" that forms the spirit. A little different in detail, but when explaining to people, animism comes into play enough.

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The circle casting itself is a variation on the LBRP which is a ritual of ceremonial magic.

LOL! Kind of. Not to ramble, but the LBRP contains in it the equivalent to a chakra cleansing, a banishment (somewhere between smudging and a house exorcism), a circle casting, and an invocation of the Highest.

Mind you, specific rituals for those within my own tradition even, do work better, but comparing the LBRP to a circle casting... if that's all you want to use it for, that's all you'll get, but it's so much more.