Saints, Prophets, and Archangels in Folk Magic

[loona wynd]

Angels are a non human race of divine consciousness (not archetypal collective unconscious or religion per se) concerned with the order of things. Archangels are at the top of that order. You will experience their interactions according to whatever (religious or otherwise) framework you're using to access them. Abrahamic religion is but one looking glass through which to interact with them. They are consciousness related to divinity not deity (God).

See I was under the impression that angels as the western world knows them are a construct or product/aspect of the Christian religion. I've also been under the impression and lead to believe that angels in this fashion are servants of Yaweh/Jehova/Allah or God as the three Abrahamic faiths know him. This is how I have always approached the concept and approached their purpose or rather presentation. In Hoodoo work its as I understand it a syncretic approach as in a mixture of a Christian view and the view of spirits from the indigenous pre-slave religious practices of African Americans. In this way Hoodoo sort of works within a Christian paradigm.


Now I've always retained a belief in angels and angelic forces. What I have battled with is if these forces belong to one religious paradigm over another. It is for this reason that I have not really done any angelic work. If they are beings that are attached to a specific God that I do not worship why would they work with me? Especially when one of the commandments of that God is to not have any other Gods above him (which I do have). So I felt that even if I petitioned them that they wouldn't answer for that reason.

I know that many religious and spiritual paths have intermediaries between Gods and Humans. These spirits and messengers in some of these faiths are often worked with more on a daily basis than Gods as many people would prefer not to bother Gods with day to day needs and would rather give the Gods attention to more important matters such as ruling the world in what ever fashion they do.

So I wonder if all these intermediaries are angelic forces or if they are different beings based in different cultural paradigms. I believe that each culture has spirits unique to them, but I also believe in overall universal spirit concepts like dragon spirits for example. So I'm not sure if angels are one of these universal spirit concepts that has slightly different forms and appearances in different cultures or if they are an example of a religion/belief system specific spirit.

So internally I've been going back and forth between they are universal forces that work with greater Divine energies and that they are messengers and beings tied to a specific set of religions and world views. I thought that Hoodoo because of it's roots might serve as a way to work between both lines. I'm just a bit hesitant is all. Hence why I was asking about other peoples experiences and how they have gone about it,

They are not a slave race that exist to do your bidding. They do not function for your egocentric desires. Approach them with that attitude and you may find you get slapped upside the head, or just ignored.

I never thought that. I don't think that about any deity, spirit, or divine force. I do believe that some spirits, deities, and forces are more appropriate to approach for certain needs than others. For example I'd approach a healing associated spirit for healing work rather than a protective spirit. I also believe that while these spirits have specific associations they are much more than that and are mysteries in their own right.

I guess what I'm saying is that I know they don't exist to do my bidding. No spirits exist to serve men save those we create. Servitors and thought forms are created by man to serve man for a specific purpose. Those spirits and those spirits alone exist to serve or do man's bidding. I have not created any of those yet (but it may be something I explore later on) so I don't expect spirits to do my bidding.

However I also know that it's not wrong to petition angelic forces for assistance on issues you are dealing with. I've found that with spirits in general if you are showing additional work on the issues (say healing for example by going to appropriate doctors and seeking appropriate treatment as well as spiritual work) that they are more willing to help you. In that regards basically if you aren't doing something and putting in your own effort for the change why should they?

I also know like I said above that some spirits are associated with specific tasks. There are for example some spirits better at doing work related to types of love than they are healing or prosperity work. So in that respect I'd rather petition an angel or spirit better suited to the task I need assistance with than one who might not be able to perform the task as it's not part of their "duties or normal associations". Its sort of like why their are Gods of different things and crafts.

Does that make sense or should I try to explain the what angel for what aspect of my seeking and curiosity in a different way?

The best way to experience these things Loona, is to try these things yourself. That's the only way to determine the value of any of it. As Firebird mentions, what's of value for some in this incarnation, may not be the right path for others this lifetime.

I know that all to well. I also know that really the only way for me to know for myself if the angelic forces are something I want to work with or that they want to work with me is to try my hands at it at some point. This is something I plan on doing. However I have found that doing some research into the practices ahead of time can give me some concept to at least go with. I take what other people have experienced with available lore and build an idea of what I could experience. Then I jump in.

Before I did any ritual with the Norse Gods I asked about experiences in ritual. I read lore. I meditated on the lore and available information and what people had said about rituals and experiences with deities. I then did my own ritual to the Gods (in this situation Odin specifically) and started to develop my own relationship and experiences with the Gods. Had I not asked questions about it before hand I would have not had other peoples experiences to compare to my own. In this way I felt confident in contact with the God at hand and that the rituals were successful.

You make a point of saying that you are a true seeker. Therefore, at some point, you have to get your hands dirty ....

I know that experience can only be gained by well doing. This is simply the nature of the beast when talking about anything magical or spiritual. I'm getting ready to try a few of the spells and rituals I have read about. However I know there is work to be done before hand. Part of my preparation in meeting or dealing with new spiritual entities is to see what others have done and experienced in the past. I am doing that here and now by starting this thread. At the same time I am reading the material and making mental notes on things I need to gather before working with them.

One of the requirements or statements in the rituals and spells I have read is working at the altar or shrine of that prophet, angel, or saint. I only have so much room for altars and shrines. So I have started to ponder a way to work with that such as setting up altars to those beings only when I am going to activly work with them (be it an offering to strengthen the relationship in a ritual fashion, a meditative working (or any spiritual working with them), or a magical working) and taking them down (always respectfully). I've also pondered what to do for images of these beings. I may need to place some orders for statues or symbols to work with them on altars and shrines.

If you do decide to try this, be sure to share your results with us.

I will. I'll probably be starting a BOS on here soon. I have some spells I've posted and written elsewhere I want to share with people. I also need to write them down in my own notebook outside as well. I have a lot of notes to transcribe actually...But no. I was planning on sharing this experience here.

This is why I join forums like this-to share and discuss experiences, and to form places of communities.

[loona wynd]

Loona, angels in the simplest sense of the word are just servants of the divine. We could spend forever splitting hairs, but I think everyone would agree with that one. As long as you hold with and consider yourself to serve a divine being out beings, you have a common ground with angels.

My goal is to be a priestess. I'm looking into ways I can become a legal minister within my state. I have found two ways for me to achieve that goal. One involves going back to school to get a Masters in something before going to Cherry Hill Seminary. The other is to re-register and restart and complete all 5 years of training in the Temple tradition.

So yes I am here to through my life serve the divine. Which divine beings I am here to serve I am not quite sure of. I'm actually interested in also pursuing the path of a multi-faith minister. In which case I would be able to serve many gods at the same time. This is more my style and who I am as I believe in all Gods. I don't worship all Gods nor do I have to. I simply believe in all Gods. I also believe they are all individual beings. I have experienced enough individual Gods for this to be true. I also believe that there are Gods and divine forces out there which are still being named and found to this day.

Might I as a Ceremonial Magician suggest that you try introducing yourself to an angel BEFORE doing any practical work with them? Sandalphon is pretty willing to help people learn.

But who would I start with. That is a big question. I do a lot of healing work in general and right now I need to do some personal healing. So I think starting with an angel associated with healing work might be the way to go.

I agree with Dark moon and firebird. Get to know an angel or 2, they actually do pretty well telling you what they like, and please do share what you can, it's a different way of working with them, and I must admit to being intrigued.

I have a workshop tomorrow to learn about working with angelic forces. I am going to use that as a starting point. It will at least give me information to draw from to use as I introduce myself to the forces out there. They may give me the answer to the debate I have been having about if they are universal or if they belong to a specific religion/culture/spiritual path.

[random417]

As far as who to stay with, I initially suggested Sandalphon (archangel of Malkuth in kabbalah), but if you're familiar with the 4 angels from your work with the LBRP, you might start with one of them. They all can help with healing work, exactly what you are healing helps define which one may fit best. You call them with the LBR, you can ask then if you have trouble deciding.

[loona wynd]

Well, I must say, they have a unique way with words that can at times be quite uplifting and illuminating. But, at other times, they could be quite ...cutting. It's all said in good faith, though. But yeah, at times, they can be a bit ouch when you have the wrong attitude, and you get a little slapped upside the head verbally, at-least. lol

Angels aren't unique in that fashion lol. Dragons can be just as upside the head as angels in getting their messages across, especially if you ignore their presence and attempts at getting through to you. Actually I think basically any spirit will have that sort of reaction to you if you approach them in that attitude.

Spirits of all sorts are my allies or partners. They have something to teach them and oddly at times we have lessons for them to learn. They work with me magically and spiritually. I give them gifts and offerings as well as my attention and devotion to them. They in return aid me in work specific to their realms or they help me find the right source for those other needs and desires. It works both ways.

In working with angels I would be doing nothing different. They would be my allies. They would teach me and help me grow spiritually. I would give them gifts and offerings of thanks. I would also give them loyalty and honesty.

Yes, you're in luck. I have seen them petitioned before in hoodoo.

I was wondering if that would be the case here. I know that Hoodoo is a folk magic practice and not a religion. I also know that elements of religions like petitioning saints and angels has made its way into the practice. It doesn't surprise me that this would be in the context of Christianity proper. I figured that many practitioners would be Catholic or Protestant. If you remember this was one aspect that drew me to the practice in general.

I have always retained a belief in the powers and entities found in the Christian religions. I do believe in Jesus as the son of this God. I believe the Holy spirit to be a separate being tied to the one creator. I also believe in God the Father. I believe in the angels of heaven (all ranks) and the demons of hell (all ranks). I can believe in these things but not be a member of the religion. I have experienced these beings but I have also experienced many other beings as well.

So I wonder if belief in that God and the associated powers is enough in this context. I do believe in and worship other Gods which is against that religion. I still believe in him and the angels with him because I have experienced their power and presence. However it was from a distance saying that like he says he will take any one willing to leave all Gods behind but I would have to stop being true to that other experiences I've had. I know hes real and I know his power, he's just not my God. I give him a nod of respect but dont worship him.

They are referred to as "Saint" this or that, rather than Archangel So and So. So, instead of Archangel Michael, I have seen petitions, candles, image cards, etc., for "Saint Michael," or Saint Gabriel, Saint Raphael, etc.

That would make sense. The description of Saint Micheal in the book I'm reading and working through seemed to fit the Arch angel rather than a saint. He seemed firery which is one of his arch angel associations. I haven't seen Azrieal or Urieal yet as saints. Maybe they are in another source or under other names?

The hoodoo protocols for this seem to me to be directly influenced by Catholicism, and therefore nearly identical in approach (as in the petition prayers used, "assigned colors" and other correspondences, novenas, 9-day vigil candles, the works).

I noticed that in the book I am working through. It mentions a lot vigils. I wondered if that was the 9 or 7 day tall glass style candles that many stores have for different things. I may need to invest in some of those over time. They seem to be excellent for spells and rituals that call for the burning of the candle for extended times several days in a row for the spell to work. Most of the spells I have read so far in this book involve a vigil burning several times for a week or nine days while making the same petition. The actual spell is cast once but the petition and offering was done with vigil lighting several more days.

Not my cup of tea. I have always just talked to the angels ("arch" or otherwise). I suppose I would have the same approach with the saints. It just doesn't seem to me that saints should be "petitioned" if you read their stories. They were just standing up for their beliefs, like Yeshua ("Jesus") was.

I'm not so sure about it myself. I mean I know my grandfather has a saint medal he placed in his car for protection while driving. So its in my family. I know that there are also church political aspects that go into play with who becomes a saint and some saints may have also been born out of other pagan deities as part of the conversation practice.

Buddha was just sharing ideas that he thought would liberate peoples' minds. In fact, he was an atheist and didn't believe in gods and other other divinities. So, when I see people praying to and petitioning these statues of Buddha, it just puzzles me. Do they not know his teachings?

I'm not sure that worship, petitioning, and veneration are the same thing. There are some similarities and cross overs but I wouldn't call them the same. As for praying to a person in this respect I dont see it really any different than praying to an ancestor. They in both cases are humans who have died and moved beyond. So while they may not want the prayers or even the fame as some have achieved, I think that it happens and they accept it. They are given a new role upon death and as such they continue to serve their God.

I can't say much on Buddha. I don't know much about Buddhism. I am aware that there are schools of Buddhism that revere Buddha as a God and some that don't. I see him as a wise and enlightened man. I believe that in this fashion by praying to him for advice or guidance one may gain their own enlightenment. He may not have sought what he has become in the world now, but it happened. Often times those who do not seek fame power or glory are the ones who have those things thrust upon them if not in life in death and the afterlife.

I make the distinction between worshiping and petitioning for aid as a difference because in Christianity its strictly against the rules to worship some one other than Yaweh/Jehova/Allah.

3. No, haven't come across any info on working with the prophets in hoodoo yet. But, that sounds like it would work though. Prophets are practically deified among some folks. And each of the Biblical prophets have enough iconic trappings and storyline idiosyncrasies that I could totally see similar set-ups for them as with Biblical saints proper (or the arch angelic "Saints").

The Book I was telling you about by Starr Casas has a large section on the prophets and saints that they have worked with, This includes several different spells and magical workings for each of the people listed. It actually started with Moses as the first one introduced. Other prophets and saints have been introduced through out that chapter.

I actually want to make the conjure stick described in the book. I've always had a fondness for Moses and everything he did. For some reason I don't think he'd have an issue with me starting my exploration into this practice by starting with him. Plus it would also be the creation of my first Hoodoo tool. Creating that tool would to myself and the spirits involved in Hoodoo show my dedication to learn, practice, and be true to the teachings of Hoodoo.

One of the things this author mentions is that she doesn't care if you believe in that God or not. You don't have to believe in the bible to work with its power and passages. So in her view so long as you follow the recipes as outlined by her book (as a starting point any way) you are performing "Southern Conjure" as she calls it. This practice does involve ripping out verses from the bible and burning them as part of the work among many other things. The use of the bible in this situation is one that I'm not sure if I agree with or not because of how much respect I have for the bible as both a religious text and as a piece of literature (it is both and I respect it as both in both context depending on the discussion or well context available).

I may end up going out and getting a few spare bibles from a local church or Bible Society (there is one in a local city that has access to multiple translations and types of bibles) so that when I do these spells I have a bible I don't mind cutting up for spell and ritual work. I can still have some separate and intact for my reading and studying pleasures.

OK, bye. I'm not supposed to be here. :wink2:

I'm glad you stopped by. I'm also glad that this thread has gotten so much attention. It's gotten me excited about working with angels and prophets as well as saints. If a belief in their powers and existence and a respect for their existence, powers, and abilities is all you need to work with them I should be fine. If its more than that....

[loona wynd]

As far as who to stay with, I initially suggested Sandalphon (archangel of Malkuth in kabbalah), but if you're familiar with the 4 angels from your work with the LBRP, you might start with one of them. They all can help with healing work, exactly what you are healing helps define which one may fit best. You call them with the LBR, you can ask then if you have trouble deciding.

I have a lot of mental and emotional healing to do from a very difficult path. Its doing this spiritual healing that has actually brought me back to myself and who I am. It's reminded me that I am a witch and I have many tools at my disposal to use for doing this work. This has driven me to recenter myself and get back to spirituality and spirit work. So I guess its a healing of the spirit and soul I am doing right now.

I've been told that Micheal is one that is good for healers to work with. Though he seems to have a more aggressive feeling than I'm thinking of using for healing. He is a warrior. So I may ask him to protect me from myself and to give me the strength to face the hardships that will continue as I do soul retrievals and other healing work. When you engage in deep spirit and soul healing work a lot of emotional turmoil can ensue. Making sure I have the strength to face them and complete the task seems like something up his ally.

One of the works I've read recently is a good uncrossing spell for opening blockages. That may be one of the first Hoodoo spells I do aside from making the Conjure stick. The uncrossing spell also focuses on creating a Hoodoo tool as well so again that may be one of the things that attracted me to that specific spell. The creation of my own tools for the work will give it even more power. I'm just not sure where I would get psalm leaves.

I'm hoping tomorrow will serve as an introduction to angelic forces. The workshop is called an introduction to angelic forces. Its and hour and a half long. So I expect it to be packed full of intense information given rapidly as an introduction. Most of these courses end with meditations to meet angelic guides and forces. We'll just see.

I am going to use the LBRP to bless my ancestral altar when I clean and reconsecrate my altar. I basically just took it down and set it back up after the move. I didn't really bless or cleanse the space specifically. It's on my list of things to do now that I am feeling spiritually and magically inspired again.

[random417]

Gabriel might also be appropriate for emotional healing. She has a less harsh energy. Check out the workshop, it should hopefully provide some insights. Ultimately it's up to you who you work with, all I can say is Gabriel has been a great source of healing and comfort in the past for me. Of course, Michael has been a shining example of strength. It's like asking me to pick a favorite kid or something lol.

[Isis3Anubis]

The arch angel Raphael is for healing his name means "God has healed"

[Isis3Anubis]

So I wonder if belief in that God and the associated powers is enough in this context. I do believe in and worship other Gods which is against that religion. I still believe in him and the angels with him because I have experienced their power and presence. However it was from a distance saying that like he says he will take any one willing to leave all Gods behind but I would have to stop being true to that other experiences I've had.

I make the distinction between worshiping and petitioning for aid as a difference because in Christianity its strictly against the rules to worship some one other than Yaweh/Jehova/Allah.

..

Henry Cornelius Agrippa wrote Three Books of Occult Philosophy. He was a medieval Christian magician. He has a chapter on "of the gods of the Gentiles and the souls of the celestial bodies..." Where he writes of the legitimate power of the old or pagan gods and how Christian magicians can petition them for aid in magick. This is part of the Old Roman Catholic views of the gods of their servants and slaves who they allowed to continue there worship if they practiced Latria: supreme reverence and adoration offered to god alone; along with the practice of Dulia: secondary reverence and adoration offered to saints for there pagan gods.

If Christians of the past could petition pagan gods I am sure they worked it the other way around. Granted most of Agrippa's works are considered heresy but then again most male scholars and even bishops of his time practiced this kind of magick secretly.

[random417]

Raphael would be appropriate for physical healing, but for the emotional healing described, Gabriel may be a better fit. It's why I asked.

[Isis3Anubis]

Gabriel is associated with water, the moon, and death so emotions may tie into that. He is also the angel of the Annunciation and associated with air for communication. Whatever works best for your own personal associations would fit too!

[loona wynd]

Gabriel might also be appropriate for emotional healing. She has a less harsh energy. Check out the workshop, it should hopefully provide some insights. Ultimately it's up to you who you work with, all I can say is Gabriel has been a great source of healing and comfort in the past for me. Of course, Michael has been a shining example of strength. It's like asking me to pick a favorite kid or something lol.

Well the workshop was interesting. The workshop focused on the vibration of unconditional love and how that is the requirement to work with angels. The leader basically said that Heaven is love as love unites us and Hell is fear because fear divides us.

Within this context there was a discussion about the divine self, the ego, and the hurt child or childself. The idea is that by actually listening to the childself (subconcious) we can be happy and be in pure love. By working to heal the wounded child and work with our inner child the messages of the divine self can some through.

I did meet three angels though. This was the part of the workshop I was most interested. While I was hoping for lore and prayers to angels to work for them a guided meditation to meet angelic forces was what I really wanted. This I knew would be my time to meet them. I saw three angels.

One of them I knew right away who it was. I knew the first angel I met was Micheal because of the flaming sword in his hand. I was a bit afraid by his sheer presence. He is powerful. I can see why he is the leader of the Divine army in some lore. He smiled warmly though and my fear was gone.

The other two I met I though might be Gabriel and Raphael. One of them was riding or at least arrived at the meeting destination on my Dragon guide. This is find very symbolic and as a powerful sign that I have both forces on my side together. It also shows me that perhaps he was simply waiting for me to ask him to show up or that I had to actively reach out to him to get him to show himself.

I asked Micheal for strength to deal with the emotional changes I'm going through as I work on soul retrieval and other healing rituals. As I asked he touched head and an inner flame started to burn. This flame to me in my strength and passion. There was also a shield shown to me.

At the end a baby version of me was handed to me by one of the other two. I knew instantly who and what the baby was. This was in essence a return of my innocence. Things happened in my baby years that took that from me. This was a healing and a soul retrieval of sorts. The baby bundle glowed when I held it and it melted back inside of me.

So I think its a good starting point. I still plan on performing the LBRP exercise and clearing my room. I think I am going to do a few more meditations on angel guides and get their names. That way I know who I am working with. That way I can pray and petition them correctly.

[loona wynd]

The arch angel Raphael is for healing his name means "God has healed"

So as a healer working with him would be a good way to start.

[loona wynd]

Henry Cornelius Agrippa wrote Three Books of Occult Philosophy.

I believe its actually a total of 4 books he wrote. Three of them are sold together as one tome and the fourth is typically a seperate book. I have the book that has his books 1-3. Its going to be a lot of long and deep reading due to the language in the book. However it is something I am going to be reading and working through.

He was a medieval Christian magician. He has a chapter on "of the gods of the Gentiles and the souls of the celestial bodies..." Where he writes of the legitimate power of the old or pagan gods and how Christian magicians can petition them for aid in magick.

Really? That sort of surprises me. Not that he recognized the power of the old gods but that he would actively work with them and petition them in magic.

This is part of the Old Roman Catholic views of the gods of their servants and slaves who they allowed to continue there worship if they practiced Latria: supreme reverence and adoration offered to god alone; along with the practice of Dulia: secondary reverence and adoration offered to saints for there pagan gods.

That sounds like a few other dual faiths I have heard of. Where basically the old gods or gods prior to Christian intervention were still allowed to be worshiped and petitioned so long as they believed or honored that Yaweh/Jehova/Allah was the supreme god who basically ruled over all the other gods. This is actually how the spirits of the African tribes became associated with various saints in Christianity. It was a way to practice their own old faiths while following the religion of their masters. It seems that this combination as you mention would be most effective with Catholicism as there are saints that spirits and messengers for petitions can be associated with other spirits and gods.

If Christians of the past could petition pagan gods I am sure they worked it the other way around. Granted most of Agrippa's works are considered heresy but then again most male scholars and even bishops of his time practiced this kind of magick secretly.

Well being a Christian heretic I am comfortable with lol. Its basically how I was most of my life, especially in a Trinitarian christian tradition. I never saw the God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy spirit as one being. I always saw them seperatly. I also only ever really saw Jesus as a demi-God. Still divine in nature but not a God himself due to his human parentage and human lifestyle. His real divine nature to me didn't happen until his crucifixion. Prior to that all teachings and miracles were that of a prophet and man.

[loona wynd]

Raphael would be appropriate for physical healing, but for the emotional healing described, Gabriel may be a better fit. It's why I asked.

What makes the difference?

[loona wynd]

Gabriel is associated with water, the moon, and death so emotions may tie into that. He is also the angel of the Annunciation and associated with air for communication. Whatever works best for your own personal associations would fit too!

Emotions are an important part of this healing. Death is powerful to. Here I guess it would be the death of the victim mentality and the rebirth into the survivor mentality. Communication regarding certain aspects of my life and my world are very difficult as well.

I know that at least Micheal wants to work with me and has been with me. He was definitely the most prominent force that made itself known in my meditation to meet and become introduced to the angelic forces out there. One of the things I have the hardest time with is accepting my own inner strength and often my fears cause me to end up not doing as much or even the best work I could.

He was eager to help me deal with my inner strength issues. So I think perhaps starting with him is the best way to work. I just am not really sure what sort of items I could give him as an offering or exchange here.