Christian witchcraft?

[Peregrine]

ShadowX, it really would be nice if, just once, you could just spit out what is on your mind instead of pussy-footing around. Get to the point!

I don't think that a lot of self-proclaimed "Christian witches" belong to any mainstream church as you describe. That is the difference. I will wholeheartedly agree that you will not find, for instance, a Southern Baptist witch. One science professor I used to know was a member of a Baptist church and he taught evolution in his classes. This used to get him in trouble where he attended services and it drove him crazy at times. I don't know how he put up with it but I remember talking over it with him. Many forms of Christianity have come to terms with the scientific Theory of Evolution, but not where he went and not where I was stuck at that time.

Early Christianity was very radically different, before Constantine took it over and twisted it up, leading the West into the Dark Ages. This gets a lot of Bible thumpers bent out of shape but by many historical accounts, early Christians did not even believe in the existance of Hell or at least not eternal torture in Hell. Those origins are pointing to ancient Roman paganism when they wanted to get the masses brainwashed into their militaristic way of life.

You only mention the Pope but like I said, there are over 30,000 different forms of Christianity and they don't all follow the Pope any more than all witches or even all Pagans run around worshipping Satan. Not even many Satanists worship Satan (LeVeyan Satanists, specifically). Not all of them are groveling around begging forgiveness for being born.

I find Gnostic mythologies the most interesting as I type this post. They are of the belief that Jehovah of the Old Testament was an entirely different deity than the one that Jesus addressed as "Heavenly Father," and that the Holy Spirit is in fact a feminine being known as Sophia.

[Peregrine]

4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

The fourth commandment

Anyone who does not rest on a sunday is thus going against the 10 holiest sentences ever said by "god", direct from his mouth as it were....

The ten commandments were a covenant for the ancient Hebrews. They could not work on the Sabbath. Nothing is said about it in Christianity, except to assemble on the first day of the week. They can still work, as long as they can make it to services also. The second commandment says not to make any graven images or likenesses, yet how many statues and paintings do you see especially in Catholicism? If they have to follow anything in a covenant that had been given to the ancient Hebrews, consistency would be in order and they'd also have to sacrifice animals among other things.

[shadowx]

I will take your word on it this time.... I always thought the ten commandments were basically the laws of christianity (and technically there are 14 if one is to read all the texts but the other 4 people just didnt like or generally forgot...)

I see your point about the pope not representing all denominations but he is, unfortunately given how evil he looks, the public face of christians in the eyes of the public and in truth i cant think of a single good christian "group" or denomination. They all try ramming their lies down your throat at some stage or another and then banging on about hell the next. Christianity is just based on lies and deceit anyway, as much as i would love to bang on about it (and believe me, i would, jesus is based on Mithras, the devil on pagan god(s) and one would assume the coincidence of SUNday being the day of god's rest (lest we forget gods were almost always associated with the sun, see the connection here..) is probably less of a coincidence and more of a "What silly pagan? A sun god... Well yes, thats our god! He rests on sun day because it is his day, the day of the sun") Lies lies lies, blood, lies and oh look, another sea of blood spilled by the church and christianity. "Dear god, why are you so awesome? Yours sincerely, shadowx."

*whistles in anticipation*

But in all seriousness, and heading back towards the original subject, you cant be a christian witch. You CAN be a witch who happens to believe in jesus and the christian god etc... (and if you really have to, creationism, but then if you can believe that there really is no hope for you!) but simply believing in jesus does not make you christian. You will be a pagan of sorts* who uses the christian deity, just as other pagans use egyptian gods and goddess etc...

me characters, but i cant remember the name of it...)

but you cant be a christian witch, not possible ever, aside from the fact that 99.999999% of other christians would agree that god would hate you, and yes, god is capable of hate. Jesus loves, god hates. tis the way it is im afriad!

Anyhoo, it's late... Cheerio!

[Peregrine]

will take your word on it this time.... I always thought the ten commandments were basically the laws of christianity (and technically there are 14 if one is to read all the texts but the other 4 people just didnt like or generally forgot...)

No, they are not. They were part of "the Old Covenant" to the Hebrews along with many other very tedious laws and guidelines. I do find it strange that so many Christians are so mentally lazy that they do not bother even reading them all to realize what exactly all of them say. If they cannot even read ten simple commandments (or 14 if you prefer), how can anyone expect them to understand many other things that were stated in early Christianity. After Constantine took it over, he and his cronies in power counted on ignorance of the masses and started their trouble which has only escalated through the ages. It does not invalidate early teachings, it only shows that it got warped and sometimes deliberate mistranslations were made.

A few of these commandments are repeated again for Christians, namely things like do not murder and do not steal. Unfortunately it is done anyway by some claiming Christianity. Is that to say that Christian doctrine is about killing and stealing just because some of them with a lot of political power have done it?

I see your point about the pope not representing all denominations but he is, unfortunately given how evil he looks, the public face of christians in the eyes of the public and in truth i cant think of a single good christian "group" or denomination. They all try ramming their lies down your throat at some stage or another and then banging on about hell the next. Christianity is just based on lies and deceit anyway, as much as i would love to bang on about it ..... Lies lies lies, blood, lies and oh look, another sea of blood spilled by the church and christianity. "Dear god, why are you so awesome? Yours sincerely, shadowx."

You can speak on behalf of the eyes of the public all over the world? How many Christian groups, out of the tens of thousands, have you met? They all go banging on about hell? All of them? Would it be fair to judge all pagans and witches based on the behavior of the phoney psychics on TV, at sites like Calastrology.com, or on tricksters claiming they have magical powers that make them levitate? Do they not also lie lie lie? Nowhere in the Bible is the devil even physically described. No horned god, no nothing. These images were added later on, along with forever hellfire.

But in all seriousness, and heading back towards the original subject, you cant be a christian witch. You CAN be a witch who happens to believe in jesus and the christian god etc... (and if you really have to, creationism, but then if you can believe that there really is no hope for you!) but simply believing in jesus does not make you christian. You will be a pagan of sorts* who uses the christian deity, just as other pagans use egyptian gods and goddess etc...

That is probably where my confusion is on the subject. Christians use prayer for enlightenment and guidance, some groups believe in faith-healing and other "miracles," but somehow it is "wrong" if pagans/witches do it? I wonder myself by reading some of the web sites if a more proper term would be something like Christian mystic or Christian shaman.

There has been plenty of bloodshed committed by many groups so I don't think Christians have capitalized on that one.

Funny I am even playing this role. I am not a Christian nor a Christian witch. I am not even a witch for that matter.

Thanks for giving me a lively discussion to busy my mind. I guess I think I'm Henry Drummond today, defending people's rights to be different or something.

[Peregrine]

Oh, in all fairness ShadowX, I do have some dark humor over some things you state. I will say that I had an upbringing in a literal interpretation of scripture. It lead to a lot of conflicting emotions.

I remember as a kid, sitting on the pew, listening to how entire peoples were slaughtered down to the last infant. I had to hear about how in some cases even the livestock were killed after they killed all the people. Then in one disturbing case, they were ordered to spare all of the young female virgins as booty to distribute among themselves. After all, the nations were very corrupt and so they needed to be killed so that the children would not get hurt that way.

Then afterwards we would all stand and sing our hymn, one example as follows: Praise Him, Praise Him. Tell of His excellent greatness. Love unbounding...

There I stood, with a pale face and blank stare....

Then another day, about how everyone else in the world was wrong and how they would all burn in eternal hellfire. That included your loving great aunt because she was not of the one true church... Now let us sing hymns... The love of God is greater far than tongue or pen can ever tell....

There I stood, with a pale face and blank stare....


I stepped into an atheism by default. I had to reformat the hard drive so to speak but now I am trying to come to terms with a few things myself is all. Not all of them believe like you say, or how I was raised. It has been very enlightening.

I get angry at people who profess love of Jesus but then act that way. There are a lot of warped people out there, which I suppose is why I am very reclusive with a "Smile and Wave" when I go out and keep people at arm's length most of the time, then go back to seclusion. I am researching things, getting to the bottom of it so to speak. I've been hurt emotionally because of my decisions by people who think their way is the only way.

Anyways... Back to my reading and research.......

[LyrioIsabel]

[quote="shadowx"]
Christianity is just based on lies and deceit anyway, as much as i would love to bang on about it (and believe me, i would, jesus is based on Mithras, the devil on pagan god(s)
[quote]


Ok first of all, Christianity is based on paganism and Christ. Like I said before, I hate how people have made it. Originally it was just a simple thing and most of the things within in such as holidays are based on pagan religions because when they were trying to get people to convert, they thought it would be less of a shock if they adopted things. So no Christianity is not BASED on lies and deciet... They came later and were the fault of the council who decided such things.


[quote=shadowx"]

But in all seriousness, and heading back towards the original subject, you cant be a christian witch. You CAN be a witch who happens to believe in jesus and the christian god etc... (and if you really have to, creationism, but then if you can believe that there really is no hope for you!) but simply believing in jesus does not make you christian. You will be a pagan of sorts* who uses the christian deity, just as other pagans use egyptian gods and goddess etc...

[quote]


and second of all, if you are a witch who worships God and Jesus then you are a Christian witch. You say that if you do one thing wrong in a religion than you are no longer a part of that religion but NO WHERE is there one shred of credible proof in the bible or anywhere that says that. If it was then its like saying everytime a christian sins or messes up they would have to be re-baptised or re-saved into christianity and no thats not how it works.

I understand you have a vendeta against christianity but please I started this topic for help on my own spiritual journey and being bombarded on ways and reasons why I can't take this journey does not help and is counter productive so unless you have something helpful for me (and positive) I would appreciate you not hating on everything that is said.

[LyrioIsabel]

And thank you Traumwandlerin for your help and I hope to continue to discuss this with you.

[Peregrine]

and second of all, if you are a witch who worships God and Jesus then you are a Christian witch. You say that if you do one thing wrong in a religion than you are no longer a part of that religion but NO WHERE is there one shred of credible proof in the bible or anywhere that says that. If it was then its like saying everytime a christian sins or messes up they would have to be re-baptised or re-saved into christianity and no thats not how it works.

I understand you have a vendeta against christianity but please I started this topic for help on my own spiritual journey and being bombarded on ways and reasons why I can't take this journey does not help and is counter productive so unless you have something helpful for me (and positive) I would appreciate you not hating on everything that is said.

Sorry if I got swept up into the debate. I defend your right to follow your path as you see it and that was my intention.

I get lesson books from Astara. The leaders who founded it call themselves Christian mystics but they also welcome wisdom from many faiths including Buddhism, Taoism, Wicca, various forms of Paganism, even UFOlogy. Most of my lessons have been on meditation techniques though and they don't have the hater attitude that you see in "purist" mindsets of the intolerant Christians that have hurt a lot of people.

I found a copy of what is called the Jefferson Bible. Thomas Jefferson took out all of the teachings from Jesus and put them together in his own book. He felt put off by the rest of the Bible but loved the sayings of Jesus so he had the Jefferson Bible. I actually saw a copy once in a public library. I think he was a Deist first but still he did not toss out the teachings of Jesus.

[Traumwandlerin]

Hi LyrioIsabel,

I had the luck to grow up in Northern Germany. Almost everyone is in a Protestant church, which is quite liberal and not at all literal but emphasizes your personal bonding with good and working with the bible to understand it yourself. But truly, most of the people here just don't believe but are to lazy to get out of church, since in Germany there is too much burocrazy to do so I have almost never met people like described by ShadowX, only in more southern regions, where there is still an heavy impact of deep rooted catholizism. But I met a lot of really nice Protestants, or people with Protestan origin wandering their own path. I walked it too for some time, but then just stopped, it wasn't for me. But still I refer to some parts of the bible, some sayings, because they are really good. But I only refer to Christianity as to every other religion. Everything has it good parts and their bad parts I just take what fits me. But I'm pagan and I just borrow sometimes from other religions.

You have bad luck to grow up in a region, where Christianity is this strict. You will have probably a lot of work to do go beyond this restrictions to see other interpretations. I would recomment to you to read up on some of the more liberal interpretations and churches. Look what's the difference.

I actually believe in hell and sin in my own interpretation. Like sin is everything you do or think or feel which blocks yourself. Like when you block your energies. It's not evil to do so, but when you feel ashamed, when you have a lot of negative energy blocking all your channels, how yould you live happily or even talk to spirits or gods? You just wouldn't hear them. And I say this even though I was raped, and I say, yeah I have done nothing wrong, but of cause it's a sin, since I was traumatized and lost a part of my soul which I have to gain back. And yes, otherwise I would end up in hell. But in my opinion hell is just the place where are some nice spirits who help me cleaning up this mess left in me. But cleaning up mess, well it just feel terrible, you have to deal with feelings and stuff, well it feels like hell But if you're done, you're free to go. Another life, afterlife, whatever. Sometimes the cleansing needs another life, so this is were reincarnation comes in So it doesn't matter if I deal with them now or after dead, when I deal with it now though, I will still have a happy life left

That's just my own interpretation which fits me really well. But those words like sin and hell aren't part of Protestant religion and therefore I wasn't forced to believe in them and were free to just think what they could probably mean to me. I think this would behard if you were told all your life that you are a terrible sinner and have to feel ashamed since god wouldn't like you anymore and he will let roast you your entire afterlife with lots and lots of pain and no rest. So probably you will find something totally different which still works.

I think to work this through and find your own interpretation the traits of the whichcraft will really help you. Such as meditation, trancing, energy cleansing (do it know, probably you will avoid hell ^^). Some things work better when you know about herbs or crystals or spells or whatever it is what resonates with you. But that's just up to you.

[LyrioIsabel]

earth wolf: thanks we do what we can and yes this is a sticky subject especially where Im from.


Traumwandlerin: You were so lucky to have been raised in such a liberal enviornment and I wish I could have been so lucky because living where I live, it's incredibly impossible to find someone who sees stuff like this the same way. I have one friend who does, as I have mentioned before, but we don't hang out much and the only time I see her is at school in the mornings. We even have to travel into other counties to find new age shops and even those are not exactly what were looking for.
I know how you feel about the being violated part. When I was 13, my best friend and I were at his grandmas house. He had just lost his grandfather and we were both pretty upset. I was trying to comfort him when he shoved me down and shoved his hands into places that I couldn't really believe was going on. I only managed to get him to stop because I had a mean right hook. That day, I stopped fully trusting people. In my mind, they only use me for what they need and when they get it they are done. A part of my soul was lost that day and I have yet to get it back. So I guess you could say I'm in hell because I haven't cleansed my soul, havent gotten that piece back and I don't have the know-how or the courage to do so. Thats one of the reasons I have a vicious war going on inside of me. My head and my heart have been fighting for these past 4 years and I don't know how to resolve it. I tried looking to the church but just felt guilty. But like I said before I love the verse in the bible (1 Corinthians 13) because it gave me hope that there is a love that exists and I want to find it, whether it be from a partner on earth, or from God or from myself. Wow, thats a big breakthrough. I don't love myself. Maybe when I do, I find find a part of my soul that I lost.

Man I really do ramble...

[Traumwandlerin]

I understand you there. Not loving yourself is one of the many consequences when stuff like this happened to you. It's not your fault, but you are left with something deep and dark and terrible inside of yourself. You can call it a demon and hope for excorzism, you can call it an energy block and look for an reiki healing or call it trauma an look for a psychotherapist. Not everything works for everyone, but everything works for someone and for everyone is a path to resolve it. I know this vicious war so well. I had it last year, one whole year, where I didn't get outside, just cried, did nothing at all, could go to university, couldn't go to work, would refuse to eat, all this stuff. It ended, when I cancelled therapy, this was just not my way. Just how other people should cancel Christianity, because that's not their way.

The love is buried inside of you. Sometimes it's easier to find it for yourselve first, sometime it's easier when you feel love from someone else first, or not even a person, since you where damaged in a way that you wouldn't be able to trust enough to feel this love from a real person who isn't perfect at all. A perfect God would love you unconditionally. The God of Christians is a God who does it, even if you're not able to feel it at the moment. I see, why you see Christianity as love-centered, because you really, really need it to feel this love to heal. Love is a really mights healing power.

You know, my little sister has the same background as me, with all kind of abuses, like me, and she turned heavilliy to Christianity. She talkes all the time about God and Love and stuff. She isn't healed yet, I see, even if she tells different, but she feels a lot different now, isn't suicidal anymore and probably in a few years will be able to work and have a life on here own (she in a clinic right now, isn't able to live on her own). It's her way, the Love of God, and I wish her all the luck she needs. She was never loved and only a perfect loving God would be able to fill this whole inside of her.

[Ravencry]

Wow, this is a great discussion. I just thought that I would add my 2 cents.

I agree that you cannot be a Christian Witch, as the bible says 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'

But, I believe that you can choose to live the life that Jesus did, as a spiritual healer. Similar to witchcraft, but not. If you choose to pray to God for healing and such, then this is not witchcraft, but traditional Christianity. The earth is considered sacred in paganism, yes, but the earth is considered sacred for other reasons in Christianity. I believe that true Christianity, not the scewed (sp?) Christianity of today, once considered the earth sacred because God wanted us to live peacefully, tend the land, and reap the earths fruits for our survival.

This is just my opinion!!! Its not fact, I do not know this for sure, simply because I was never raised Christian.

Christianity has its Prophets (psychics), its healers (also healers in Witchcraft), its sacrifices (What do you think the witch burnings were? In my opinion, they were sacrfices to Gods temper)

[LyrioIsabel]

Traumwandlerin: I appreciate your insight so much and I'm glad you understand where Im coming from. You're right on the fact that it is very hard for me to feel love from the people around me because of what happened. I guess this is why I seek love elsewhere. And also the war gets so bad that sometimes I just think ending everything would be the best choice. Then other times when I think the battle is over, it just hits me again. Just last night I thought I was going to pull my hair out over this war. My old biology teacher taught me a type of meditation that helped you realize who and what was fighting in your head and it helped me fight the war as if he had given me the most powerful weapon against it. It's been over a year since Ive done it and now the war is worse than it was before. I not crazy mind you (well i guess we're all a little bit crazy ) but it still hurts to not be able to control this, to have constant battles to be going on inside my mind. I just want something to ease this. Any tips on how to meditate or just help me calm myself and my head soldiers...

[Peregrine]

Would you be interested in angel meditations? My first recommendations would be Zadkiel (Spiritual Development, Aid for those who are Wounded and/or Afraid), Raphael (Healing), Cassiel (Solitude and Tears, Serenity from the Disharmony), Muriel (Emotions and Deepest Feelings). There are others but here is one list:

http://www.drstandley.com/guidance_angels.shtml

[Atehequa]

Whenever I see or hear the word Christian, the thought of mainstream monotheism comes to mind. The BIG 3 - Christianity, Islam and Judaism. All sharing a common origin and originating in the same geographical location. In the later part of the Fifth Millennium BC tribes of Semitic nomad herdsmen from Syria’s desert country and the Arabian peninsula began an invasion of the Tigris and Euphrates River lands. Conquering this fertile area and it’s people whom historians called the Ubaidians, a new civilization budded, flowered and became fruitful.
Those original inhabitants, The Ubaidians according to archeological evidence were a primitive people just emerging from a semi-nomadic village life of slash and burn agriculture into permanent mud brick structured town dwellers who cared for some livestock. Although they retained some male deities, perhaps of the Sun, skies or of the hunt, as agriculture advanced, fertility along with a fertile Mother Earth Goddess were pretty much these Ubaidians spiritual make up. With the drift of these Semitic Tribes all but complete, the Ubaidian people were not only conquered, but their culture was absorbed and enhanced as well. With this blending came new deities and forms of worship, yet the Fertile Mother still drew deep reverence from the people, ever appreciative of her goodness and fruitful bounty. I imagine there had to be a lot of important priestesses who held great sway over state affairs. The old mud brick, thatched roof towns became large impressive cities and capitols of kingdoms.

But somewhere in that distant past, something changed. Invention and divine male virility outshined the Good Earth mother’s natural fertility. Perhaps after a long stretch of favorable climatic conditions a devastating drought occurred prompting large populations of newly civilized people who depended on fruitful harvests to believe that the Goddess had forsaken them. Survival spurns adaptation and is the master of man’s inventions. I suspect wells were dug and river water diverted by way of canals or irrigation ditches to insure future harvests, not having to depend on the Earth Mother, who by the way remained as a deity, but was now subservient to the wise and now all powerful male god. A male deity who not only guided man’s hands in such inventions, but aided him in both defense and conquest along with the majority of state affairs. I imagine the plight of women became worse, as man was now running the show. Even today the Monotheistic BIG 3’s holy books of worship and rules decrees such.

This deity was probably an enhanced version of some old Sun or hunting god, or maybe an old guardian spirit. The new priesthood gave away the Earth Mother as a bride to the dominate male deity and for awhile she bore him god-like beings who for some time were worshipped as well.

God could not convey goodness without the presence of a evil. God could not protect man unless there was something to protect him from. Having no fear of a great evil or grand devil the faithful would sway,, so all the old demons, ghouls, shaitans were consolidated into a single Satan, ever leading good people astray, turning them as bad as the Devil himself. Spiritual extortion and persecution, both terrible aspects of religion over state.
Utu, Enil, Marduk, Adon, Ahura Mazda and others have evolved into the Allah, Jehovah and Yahweh we are familiar with today. In the faith of the Christians, Jews and Moslems there is hardly, if any hint of the Good Earth Mother.

Surely not meaning to offend anyone, but in my opinion it’s a bunch of contrived BS. Sometime long before the first new sprouting of Monotheistic Male Deity Worship, there existed a balance. A time before the Spirits were anthropomorphically transformed by mankind. An earlier time when Spirituality was more of a feeling through being, rather than a explainable meaning. A natural instinct and knowing, rather than a spoken or written word.

From what I’ve read, heard and come to understand, since the very beginning of Christianity, Christians have adopted much from the then surrounding ‘Pagan’ cultures. Pagan festivals, mannerisms, sacred days, symbolism and trappings have all been incorporated into this Religion for over 2000 years, but I have to wonder why they still call themselves Christians and ponder upon what they have accomplished in that stretch of time. For me the terrible far out shadows the good. What has the monotheistic Big 3 done as a whole for this living Earth besides involve most all of mankind in forceful conversion or elimination and ‘Holy Wars that have dragged on for centuries. Crusades, Jihads, bloodbaths more horrible than any tribal feud or even the violent dominance of Ancient pre-Christian or pre-Islamic empires.

Oh I do not doubt that over 2000 years ago, a peaceful and wise man of healing skills who probably moved with kind Spirits, lived, walked, taught and tried to make a difference in a world not ready to accept such. His life, words and endeavors have been constantly taken out of context, thus made to fit into the ambitions of man.

As for Christian Witches or Wiccans, I am neither, but would think one would be much more comfortable either here or there. Of course there is the basic human right to believe in or travel on any Spiritual Path as long as it does not infringe upon others who may not share those same beliefs.