Everything Under the Moon

Hi,
I joined the forum several months ago but wasn't very active.
The problem is I still can't connect to higher phenomena.
I'm just spiritually dry.
I can't find any path that would resonate with me.
I can't believe Christianity, but I can't fully believe in pagan practices either. I believe that spells and rituals work only because people believe in them , I don't believe that candles or stones have a power of their own.
So basically everything I see, I assess critically and can't "truly believe" anything.
Yet, I used to be spiritual, there's a hole in me that wants to follow a path. I'm not an Atheist. I know there's "something", I just can't find a theory to describe it. Everything seems to be too simple, too straightforward. I hope no one gets insulted because my intention is not mean, but basically everything seems to be for "simple people".
Any suggestions? Would chaos magic be the way for me?

I've discovered some amazing channels thanks to this forum, but they are mainly psychological, self help type. Now, I'm looking for a religion.

I don't know if this will help, but here's my experience with scepticism.
I have been casually Christian, atheist, atheist-agnostic, agnostic, and Pagan. I am, as you can imagine, still in the latter category- and more at home than I have ever been. I am also a critical thinker, and a sceptic. It used to be that often, I would see a spell, and I think, 'Ah, that only works because the caster thinks it does.'* The universe presented me with a lot of 'signs', a lot of proof, and I only felt that magic for a brief moment, before it was back to the critical thinking, and I had to remind myself of what I felt. I could do, and so here I am, believing these spells work- still casting them, still praying the God and Goddess. Over time, that critical analysis has faded to allow for beliefs alongside it. It still comes back, occasionally, but that's not a bad thing. To believe blindly is not to appreciate what you believe.
I can't suggest to you a religion that you will fall for, hook, line, and sinker. But, here is my advice. Remember a moment where you felt that something greater (whatever it may be), and hold it close. Suspend your disbelief, for a while, and it will come.
Here's an example for you- I couldn't get into crystal magick. The critical thinker in me said, and says 'Crystals are just rocks'. But I put that aside for a while, charged a few by moonlight, and wore them in necklaces- I just accepted them, and tried them out, and in increments, got less averse. Slowly, they are just becoming right, in my mind.
So, in summary- find what spiritual path you feel most at home in- and then allow yourself to believe it. Give yourself permission, and don't worry too much at your scepticism. It'll come.
Best of luck to you, I hope this was useful!
(*Of course, some spells do purely work as a placebo effect, whether that is the intention, or whether it just isn't a working spell.)
(I apologise if this comes of as the sort of 'You'll find God one day!' mentality, I definitely wasn't aiming for that. Just, this is my experience, and I think it might have some similarities with how you're thinking right now. I don't mean, by writing this, that you will take the same path I did- I just think, if you're looking for a religion but find it hard to believe, this can help.)

Thank you, Hawk. This is useful advice.
It's what I thought, too. You see, after I've read books and ridiculous amount of forum threads from all kinds of religions, I noticed that no arguments actually work. I don't remember anyone changing their opinion after someone else gave them arguments. It's always a belief or wish to believe that comes first, and arguments follow after that.

So yes, your post has been helpful and you only reinforced me that I just have to let it happen.
Hopefully I'll be able to do it.
I just have to find something that will resonate with me at least a bit.
Perhaps I'll try to find a goddess that I can have a relationship with.

That could be a good place to start! Though I wouldn't truly know- I'm nowhere near an expert. I've been interested in this path for years, but only actively studying about two months- I've just been reading a lot. So I'm still not really into it, and I still remain unable to feel energy, or much magic, and I'm hoping that will come in time. It seems to. Point being, there are going to be more people around that feel like you do- and people at every step along the way. There'll be advice anywhere you look for it, and if the spiritual path is the right path for you, and if you want it, it'll happen. It's probably just one of those things that can't be rushed.
As for finding a goddess, I think, if there's an aspect of the world you feel particularly attached to, or a kind of mythology you love (even if it's just for the stories) start there.

.



Hi moonraingirl. I'm sure a lot of people who visit sites like these have the same feelings and beliefs as you do, but would rather not say it, for fear of being "told off" or otherwise criticized, as people can be very defensive about their spiritual beliefs. I'm glad you didn't find that here, but that the responses above were caring and thoughtful, which says something about our great members here .

I appreciate your courage and honesty, and here are a few thoughts I have on your comments.

I don't believe that candles or stones have a power of their own. So basically everything I see, I assess critically and can't "truly believe" anything.

Can one really "assess critically" a subject when one may not have actually researched any facts about it? Not saying you haven't, but by your comment it seems you may not be aware that crystals like quartz, kyanite, diamonds, and others have long been used regularly in various machinery and goods, specifically due to how they conduct and otherwise affect energy.

It's not a matter of belief. It's a matter of solid physics. Otherwise, industries would not invest the effort and cost of utilizing crystals as they do. Quite often, when people utilize them in magic, they are merely following the same properties the stones are known for in the scientific world.

I've discovered some amazing channels thanks to this forum, but they are mainly psychological, self help type. Now, I'm looking for a religion.

You may have noticed in my posts that I tend to relate spiritual concepts with self-help concepts. Both paths are strengthened that way, I'd say. I want people to be able to navigate both their spiritual worlds and their mundane worlds. Having skills in one without having skills in the other is, using your term, a "spiritually dry" experience.

Broadly-speaking, I think the point of religion is self-help. In my opinion, all religious activity is psychological in nature, meaning, "of, affecting, or arising in the mind; related to the mental and emotional state of a person." I think that's the whole point. Most people are trying to better themselves, and use religion as a tool to help them do that.

It sounds like you think people mindlessly sing songs, or read spiritual texts, or in our case here, that pagans mindlessly worship gods or do spell work. We choose our spiritual paths because of deep psychological meanings we find in them. This is far from a mindless approach. This is very mindful.

When you say, "I'm looking for a religion," are you saying you want to do some mindless activity that "simple" people would do? What are you really looking for when you say that? Break it down a bit, deconstruct it. What does religion look like? This differs for different people.

Everything seems to be too simple, too straightforward. I hope no one gets insulted because my intention is not mean, but basically everything seems to be for "simple people".

Many pagans I know are some of the most well-read, educated and open minded people I've met. Often, they have explored a number of different spiritual paths and religions before settling on the one they have chosen, so they tend to be well-versed on a number of topics. On top of all this, many hold down jobs, some even excelling at what they do. Some also raise families. In short, I find pagans to be skillfully walking both the magical and mundane worlds, not an easy task, lol.

Personally, I have a bachelor's degree from the UC system in California, and am completing a second degree in another field. As I said, I try to tie together the magical and the mundane because in my view they are both part of our daily lives, in a big way. I don't worship any gods, I actually advise against it. But, at the same time, I have a very rich spiritual life, one from which I learn a lot. I hope the posts I write here reflect that.

Again, as with what you believe about crystals, and religion, I would invite you to explore in much more depth the nature of people following a pagan path. Have you met them personally, gotten to know any of them or are you basing your opinion only on what you read on a message board? If you get to know real people, living real lives, you will find many are not as "simple" as you may have made them out to be.

Would chaos magic be the way for me?

Only you would know if chaos magic is right for you after having sampled that path for a while. Study it, do some of its practices, see if these experiences resonate. If they do nothing for you, move on. There's no other way to know but to invest the time and effort to find out. If a path "speaks" to you, it's usually a clue to explore that direction.

If someone does tell you what would "be the way" for you, ha, I would be suspicious of that person if I were you --probably a self-professed "teacher" that wants to recruit you as his or her "student." There are folks out there all too eager to show you "the way" (their way). Better to find that yourself by just diving in.





.

Thank you, Kassandra.
I'll do the reading and exercises from chaos magic.
I've thought about it and right now I feel that I have to find the goddess.
I guess that the main problem in Christianity for me was that it's such a patriarchal religion and I couldn't connect with a male God. I knew in theory that Christian God doesn't have a gender, but he's always portrayed as a man

.

Thank you, Kassandra...I feel that I have to find the goddess...I guess that the main problem in Christianity for me was that it's such a patriarchal religion and I couldn't connect with a male God.

Appreciating the Divine Masculine

You're welcome. I understand your thoughts on the male-energy heavy nature of mainstream Christianity. History is littered with its violent, greed-driven excesses. But, Divine Masculine energy itself has an important place in the larger scheme of things, moonraingirl. Don't get jaded or turned off from it just because you've been exposed to Christianity's past (and continued) abuse of it.

The Divine Masculine is just an energy. It can be a life-giving, benevolent energy, one that impels and ignites us to move and effect change in our lives. It is the energy of action, activity. And as far as goddesses go, I find that I could experience the Divine Feminine (which I might nickname as "Goddess" occasionally in my writing), without having to worship a particular named being, for it, too, is just an energy. To me, it is the cement that holds everything together, the inside energy that directs and gives form to outside activity, if that makes sense.

To me, gods and goddesses come and go. But Divine Energies are eternal...in fact, without them, there would be no god or goddess, there would be no life in this density, period. I think that at most, gods merely stand in as "representations" of these eternal energies, anthropomorphizing them, making the concepts of them easier for humans to grasp, a crutch of mind, if you will. Well, I say to fellow Terrans, throw off the crutches, walk for yourselves!



Healing the Goddess Within?

Now, religion tends to be very archetypal, and often, people will use religious concepts as metaphors about their lives, without even knowing it. And I like to examine the language people use, as I believe words reflect the energy behind them...

"I feel I have to find the goddess." To me, that is a very significant statement. It's not, "hey, it'd be nice if I found the goddess," etc. No, you "feel" this, which means this is coming from your heart center, a place of honesty, not from your head, a place of superficiality. You "have to" do this, this is on the level of need.

If I may say, from your first post, I seem to sense a lot of resentment and frustration with you as regards this topic, that seems to go waaay beyond just religion (hope you're not projecting that onto the nearest Divine Masculine representations to you, namely, the males in your personal life,they won't know what hit them, lol). I'm also hearing a sense of loss, of mourning that loss, and anger over that loss, like, "This was not fair. It shouldn't have happened that way!"

So, I'm wondering if there have been one or more pivotal instances in your life where you felt attacked unfairly, and the attack was against some aspect of your being a female, in some way? And I'm wondering whether the "higher phenomena" you're struggling to connect to, is really the Divine Feminine within yourself, that may have gone into hiding (called "soul loss" in shamanism) due to some kind of trauma she suffered?

These are just rhetorical questions for introspection, you don't have to answer. But they may provide you insight as to the "hole" you feel, the feeling that something is missing (is it, in fact, broken, needing to be fixed?).




.

You're a good empath .
You're right, I have problems with relationships. To be exact, lack of them.
I also had experiences when I felt hurt and forgotten by Christian God.

.


Thanks. It's close to my moon time. I get like this. Problem is, I'm empathing everything and everybody. It's driving me nuts, haha. I don't want to come out of my room. But I guess it makes for good post writing, if nothing else.

Your situation (and mine, lol) reminds me of the sun goddess, Amaterasu. She was hiding in a cave, and didn't want to come out. She had to be coaxed to get her to shine again, or else the world and everything in it would die.

Do find the goddess, moonraingirl. She's in there, alive and well. She's afraid to come out though, but she just needs a little support and reassurance from you to be her normal self again, to shine and be the goddess she truly is.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x0whrNCkuw





.

I was a militant atheist for most of my life.

In retrospect I was living like a pagan shaman from the time I started making my own choices, but I didn't know that the way I lived had a "name".
So I thought I was a freak...and so did everyone else. It caused me a lot of problems.

All of that changed. After my brother died.
He and I had spent time talking under the moonlight while fishing, and we had made a promise of sorts that whichever of us died first, we'd try to let the other know if there was something on the other side.
We'd share a sign.
We'd made a pact.

When he died I got proof. The story of my proof doesn't matter because it's so central to the relationship he and I shared that it wouldn't make sense to anyone else.

In other words, I'm not here to "sell" a type of truth.

I know that I'd give all that knowledge back to go fishing with my brother again. 1000 times over.

But I can't. So now I try to understand the difference between the world in which I live and the larger goals of reality as a whole.
It's a spiritual awakening.
Searching is an acknowledgement that you feel that bigger world. And you know there is more, but you can't find the crack in the wall that lets you peek in.

I'm not going to tell you to "keep digging"...it's like telling someone waiting at a bus stop to have faith that the bus will come.
Well of course it will come eventually, it's a system designed to deliver buses, to stops, and then people on buses to other stops.
DUH.

You don't have to have faith in the bus. It is a system.

This is all part of a large and complex system.

Read through posts to this forum by Seraphin_npoCampo. One of the most critical thinkers I think this forum has.
Brilliant reach and scope and a wide berth of understanding of interdisciplinary systems.

And don't stop being curious.

.


Thanks. It's close to my moon time. I get like this. Problem is, I'm empathing everything and everybody. It's driving me nuts, haha. I don't want to come out of my room. But I guess it makes for good post writing, if nothing else.

Your situation (and mine, lol) reminds me of the sun goddess, Amaterasu. She was hiding in a cave, and didn't want to come out. She had to be coaxed to get her to shine again, or else the world and everything in it would die.

Do find the goddess, moonraingirl. She's in there, alive and well. She's afraid to come out though, but she just needs a little support and reassurance from you to be her normal self again, to shine and be the goddess she truly is.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x0whrNCkuw





.

Sorry I didn't see your post until now.
Wow... You got my situation exactly right. You really have a gift. I'd appreciate if you have more advice for me from higher plane. Thank you!
That is, if it's not too draining for you. I know how empathy can be exhausting.

HopefulChild, what an interesting story. Yeah, I can see how a sign like that can change your perception. I had signs, too, that's why I can never be an atheist again.
I'll search for his posts, that's a good idea, thanks

Hey Moonraingirl, I'm a bit late to the game, but here are my thoughts on the original question ... I would separate out "critical thinking" from "skepticism". Critical thinking, to me, is being able to evaluate and analyze information in order to form an opinion. That's always a great thing to have, no matter what your religious or spiritual path may be. "Skepticism" indicates doubt. They are related, but not exactly the same.

I think it is important to have a healthy amount of skepticism too, but not so much that you are never able to form an opinion on anything ever. I used to struggle with the question of, "How can I know anything at all?" if even our senses can be tricked. I could not even believe that this world existed. But eventually I came to the conclusion that you cannot advance or dig deeper into a spiritual path without accepting at least a few things. But belief can be fluid, and open to change. John Beckett makes a great case for how our experiences help form our beliefs. As our experiences change, so do our beliefs. And that's where critical thinking comes in -- that's what helps us shed old beliefs that no longer serve us, and find new beliefs that do. This applies to every area of Paganism, in my humble opinion. A healthy dose of skepticism can actually make our beliefs and practices stronger and more spiritually fulfilling, than simply believing what we are told.

I know that's easier said than done, but I also made a journey from atheism to Paganism, because I felt a similar spiritual hole. For me, a big part of it was understanding that spiritual or mythical truths are just as important as scientific, material proof. Again, I will quote John Beckett:

Why is it important that our beliefs are validated by science? Few accept the authority of the Bible or the Church or of governments – we want to see proof. We want studies and data and the incontrovertible evidence that exists more in TV crime dramas than in real laboratories. Science has become the arbiter of truth in our materialistic society and we want science to bless our religion.

At the root of this desire is the idea that the only truth worth having is the kind of truth science can validate, that the only knowledge is literal, material knowledge. This is why fundamentalists insist the Bible is literally true – if it’s not literally true then they think it’s worthless. They ignore the value of mythical and mystical truth.

When we look for science to affirm our conversations with nature spirits we devalue mystical experiences. When we look for science to affirm our communion with goddesses and gods we devalue mythical experiences. When we look for science to affirm after-death communication we devalue spiritual experiences ...

And that, I suspect, is the core reason behind the desire for the validation of science and the discounting of non-ordinary reality: we fear what lies beyond death. Few Pagans worry about going to hell. Instead, we worry that the atheists may be right and beyond death lies nothing. We trust only science to assure us that our consciousness lives on after our bodies die.

Science can’t do that.

I believe that after death I will enjoy a time of rest, reunion, and reflection before plunging into the Cauldron of Rebirth and returning to this world to continue the Great Work of my soul. Science can’t prove that. It can’t disprove it either. I believe it based on the long tradition of similar beliefs in many cultures. I believe it based on the myths of my ancestors. I believe it based on my own mystical experiences.

But I freely admit I might be wrong.

I’m certain of a few things. After death I am certain my body will decay and return to Mother Earth, where the elements that currently make up my bones and muscles and organs will be recycled into other living things. I am certain I will not be forgotten by those whose lives I have touched – that which is remembered lives. I am certain my actions have influenced processes that will continue indefinitely – the world will feel my impact long after everyone who ever heard of me is gone. And I am reasonably certain the very words you are reading now will be preserved indefinitely in the internet, giving me immortality of a sort. Even if the atheists are right and after I die my consciousness simply ceases to exist, the essence of who and what I am will live on.

And so will you.

Mythical and mystical truth is just as real and just as important as literal truth. It can tell us things science can’t.

(Source: "Bad Science Makes Bad Religion", from [url=http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnbeckett/]Under the Ancient Oak by John Beckett)