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Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:31 pm
by JuniperBerry
Really? You're making me do this? :P


"Norbert Guterman suggested that the probable source for the quotation was a line in a 6 February 1770 letter to M. le Riche: ``Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write.''


Hall even confirms that she paraphrases Voltaire and that it isn't an orginal thought, as his attitude was also expressed in another line:

''Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too.''

I'll say it again. I like Hall's VERSION of Voltaire. But we can still nit-pick it if you like. :)

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:37 pm
by Serendipity
Really? You're making me do this? :P


"Norbert Guterman suggested that the probable source for the quotation was a line in a 6 February 1770 letter to M. le Riche: ``Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write.''


Hall even confirms that she paraphrases Voltaire and that it isn't an orginal thought, as his attitude was also expressed in another line:

''Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too.''

I'll say it again. I like Hall's VERSION of Voltaire. But we can still nit-pick it if you like. :)
No! You’re not nit picking and neither was I!

I’m serious about getting something right if I have it wrong and this time I may!

Thanks for the info I’m going to do a little research and then very possibly apologize to Voltaire lol. :)

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:57 pm
by JuniperBerry
Me too. Just a few days ago I had to eat crow, admit I was wrong and sheepishly hope I was still welcome. But at least I can accept it. :)

Sorry about the nit-picking comment. I have a ton going on and so I don't have alot of patience and tend to ...look, I'm just bitchy. *Laughs* Really, I don't have patience and I'm too blunt or aggressive at times, but that's no excuse. I'll always apologize for it, tho!

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:13 pm
by Serendipity
No apology necessary. I tend to be a little ummm.... Direct? myself lol

Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:23 pm
by bluemoon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca#History

Wicca is now recognized as a ligitament religion in the US Military.

While I am not Wiccan, I have no problem with anyone who calls themself such. To me to HATE a group for any reason or simple because I don't agree with what they think is a bit egotistical.
I am human
I make mistakes
I try to be open minded to new ideas
We may not agree, but that's ok I don't want to be your clone or have you be mine.

just my opinion

Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:27 pm
by Serendipity
That is both a nice and a healthy way to look at life bluemoon :)

The US military has recognized Wicca for a long time now. At least since 1986, maybe earlier. The IRS also recognizes Wicca and I believe that came about at about the same time. Late last year the VA (Veterans Administration) was dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century and finally agreed to provide proper inscriptions for fallen pagan soldiers on their headstones in national cemeteries.

Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:37 pm
by connor)O(
Can i just say that to the person who said Wicca is weak and immature (shadowx) , it really isnt. Immature is like trying to cast a spell to make erm shall we call him fred? to love you. there are strict rules against manipulation, the three fold law however to my mind is flexible, say if i was in danger of someone harming me in any way i would judge up who would get hurt more 1. me if i didnt bind or banish them or 2. them if i did. if it would be harming me more not to then i would. its all about keeping the scales even. You mention wiccan conversation examples as a fairy worshipping anticult that is as far from the mark as an elephant is to a mouse, its just harm none or in my case, lest in thy own defense it be, evermind the law of three. Just because we try our best to not hurt or maim someone doesnt make us weak, remember that letting your anger get the better of you IS a weakness.

Re: The 13 Principles of Wiccan Belief

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:34 am
by WakeUpWolfgang
7. We see religion, magick and wisdom in living as being united in the way one views the world and lives within it – a world view and philosophy of life which we identify as Witchcraft – the Wiccan Way.
I don't know if this has been settled I only read a part of the first page.

We see religion, magick and wisdom in living as being united in the way one views the world and lives within it. That is the Wiccan defection of Witchcraft and they treat it as a world view and philosophy of life which we identify as Witchcraft.

Sorry if it is confusing that is how I see it.

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:00 pm
by shadowx
I dont want to make the thread into a wicca bashing one but wicca really is immature (it is less than a century old and yet proclaims to teach people "the old ways")

And it is weak, many of its members have no idea what witchcraft, paganism or even wicca are. They know nothing of the religion itself and are usually misguided individuals who seek a group in which they feel they fit.

Not all wiccans are that way of course, there are many who are intelligent, strong willed and wise but as a religion wicca lets itself down because of it's members.

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:11 pm
by Serendipity
While I don’t agree with shadowx completely I do share some of his frustration.

One of the problems with Wicca is that for too long just anybody got away with saying just anything. That’s wrong and has done a lot to make Wicca look foolish to some people. Please note I am not saying that it is foolish, I am simply saying that some people associated with Wicca put it in a poor light.

Some of that is now beginning to be corrected by people who are more responsible in what they choose to write. But, for a long time people who I consider no more than profiteers wrote a bunch of silly stuff and presented that crap as facts. If someone wants to give me a “fact” that is fine, but you better be prepared to give me a source and it better be a good one.

Beliefs, opinions, and facts are all different things as I see it.

A fact is something where you can point to some credible documentation. Period. No documentation? Don’t tell me it’s a fact.

As I see it opinions are based on information which may or may not be factual. Then an individual either consciously or unconsciously forms an opinion after assessing said information.

A belief needs no justification. People can and do hold beliefs for no other reason than a feeling in their gut and they have every right to do so.

Do I respect Wicca? Yes I do, but that doesn’t stop me from questioning some of it’s precepts and finding them wanting. Do I respect all Wiccans? Frankly no. I have an obligation to respect their rights to their beliefs but I don’t have an obligation to respect any individual who has not earned my respect. That being said… I do have an obligation to treat all people with respect or to simply stay away from them, at least here in an online forum that is about the free and open exchange of information.

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:17 pm
by connor)O(
to shadow wicca doesnt "claim to teach people the old ways" your taking a popular stereotype and blowing it up to encompass an entire religeon, if you want to embrace the stereotype go and sacrifice a baby, or maybe a goat? Were all different and to judge a religeon on its select idiotic members is egotistical, plus the only way we teach people the old ways <- apparently, is that we celebrate the celtic seasonal celebrations, which are the old ways. Wicca in itself isnt ancient and i will not associate myself with anyone that sais it is, wicca was invented by gerald gardner after or maybe during the second world war. Im not really familiar with him as much as i should be because i see him as only a vessel to a belief.

Re:

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:21 pm
by Saker Witch
I dont want to make the thread into a wicca bashing one but wicca really is immature (it is less than a century old and yet proclaims to teach people "the old ways")

And it is weak, many of its members have no idea what witchcraft, paganism or even wicca are. They know nothing of the religion itself and are usually misguided individuals who seek a group in which they feel they fit.

Not all wiccans are that way of course, there are many who are intelligent, strong willed and wise but as a religion wicca lets itself down because of it's members.
I've read this thread, Shadowx, and have to say I agree with what you've had to say. I don't "hate" Wiccans, they more exasperate me than anything else. I began my path as a Wiccan, but it only took me about a month to realize that I was NOT going to be bound by any rede or threefold law. The reason I was drawn to paganism was its individuality and the responsibility of the individual to formulate his/her code of ethics. I find "rules" like the rede to be very limiting. In effect, it closes off entire avenues of thought and learning and growing. What I am mainly referring to is the darker side of paganism. When you focus only on "light," "goodness," bunny rabbits, sunflowers, and unicorns, you are severely unbalanced - in every way. You don't have to be evil or consort with demons to acknowledge the darkness. It's about examining yourself and your darker motivations and actions, and determining what you're going to do about it. Pretending that the world is all peaches and kittens is a delusion. I am talking about serious self-examination to ferret out the ugliness within. We all have it. The only way to be balanced emotionally, mentally, and spiritually is to bring those things out, ask yourself why you do them, if you are willing to try to change, or if you actually enjoy doing them, and find out why. Wicca denies this for the most part, basically telling you that you just have to be positive all the time, look for beauty, blah blah. Sure, you can be positive and look for beauty, but when you've got unresolved issues all the feigned happiness isn't going to last long. And it's not a one-time okay-I've-found-my-inner-darkness-now-I'm-done kind of thing. It's a lifetime thing. We have to examine ourselves all the time to become what we want to be and to be able to look ourselves in the mirror. This means we should have a regular trip into our own personal dark side. Maybe there are things in there we can live with, or even embrace. Other things we want to get rid of. This is about each of us as individuals and has nothing to do with projecting energy of any sort onto anyone else. However, unless we acknowledge all aspects of ourselves, our interactions with other people will suffer. Lying to ourselves only results in bad relationships in so many ways. If you can lie to yourself, it's easy to lie to others, or not to be who you really are. Many people go through life this way, being miserable, pretending to be all perky and at peace, leaving a trail of broken friendships, resentments, and worse behind them, and never understanding why, because they think they are "walking in the light."