Philosophical Questions About Deity, God, and Wicca

[Lord_of_Nightmares]

Because the gods have limits, do not "rule" over everybody, and of they stopped all suffering in the world the world would be unbalanced. Lastly, this is my personal beliefs, but I also believe the gods have opposites that oppose them and try to ensure human suffering.

Valiente mentions that the Wiccan rede is not about pacifism and the pacifist stance does more harm than good. I would think this is also true if we just do away with all suffering.

Evil prevents happiness? How can one be happy without anything bad or no harm? How can one measure happiness if there is no unhappiness to measure it against?

Life is suffering for everyone. Animals suffer, plants suffer, and people suffer. Its a fact of life just like how animals prey upon each other. Even plants feel pain. Suffering is a part of natural life. I don't think the gods can get rid of the laws of nature. Buddhism is right about that one.

And this is part of the reason I find Wicca so interesting. In all three of the big monotheistic religions: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, God is completely omnipotent. But the God and Goddess in Wicca don't seem to be. I'd like to know more about that.

There are polytheistic, monotheistic, etc Wiccans. But Wicca leaves a lot to interpretation and doesn't claim a solidified doctrine that explains evil like Christianity. So, when you say you like to know more, could you elaborate? My view was a tad more on the poly side but once again Wicca never said the gods were omnipresent or potent etc.

You also said that in your personal beliefs there are opposites of the God and Goddess that try to ensure suffering. How do you believe they came about? I'm really interested to know because none of the Wiccans I've ever spoken to have this belief.

Its a long story but I was introduced to the concept early on through fiction. When I studied Hinduism and other Asian religion I realized that the concept conferred to my UPG. In short, its from Hinduism but is believed also in Japan because of Buddhist monks. The concept is the Asura. In English, they are often translated as "demons" but this is not quite correct to what they are. The Japanese term is mazoku, and they are a common theme in anime against the gods.

Your point on happiness is very good. I still can't quite wrap my head around a God and Goddess that aren't omnipotent. Just a left over from Christianity I suppose. What I still want to know is what the God and Goddess really are. I know that some people literally believe in their existence, and others metaphorically believe in them. What do Wiccans who follow the first path believe about them?

Since Wicca loves an air of mystery and the gods can change depending on the coven, you will get different answers. In Gardner's Wicca they were Aradia and Cernunnos. Perhaps, reading Gardner and Valiente may clear some things up since they are the founders essentially. Gardner got the gods from Murray's now debunked thesis. Cernunnos is Gaulish. Aradia is an Italian witch goddess. She came from the book Aradia or the Gospel of Witches by Leland. Her history is disputed but it is a good book.

I used to struggle like you did and reading Greek myths and how they saw their gods helped with it. Their gods made mistakes and were flawed. It took some time before the indoctrination was gone and I find the idea of flawed gods better than I do of one flawless god. It is much more interesting and less boring. I will write more later. Kind of out with the fam atm.

[SilverAntlers]

Thanks for the reply, Lady_Lilith. You said in your post that Wicca doesn't claim a solidified doctrine that explains evil. So what are some of the beliefs that different Wiccans have about evil? Maybe one of them will satisfy my mind.
You also asked me to elaborate on what I meant when I asked about an omnipotent God and Goddess. Basically, I was asking what the God and Goddess have the ability to do. I know that the Prime Mover is probably the only omnipotent being within Wicca. But can the God and Goddess see the thoughts and feelings of their followers? If they are part of nature and the Earth, are they present everywhere at once? Even though they don't want to interfere with the balance of things in our world, could they?
The UPG you wrote about was very interesting. I read up some on the Asura last night. Where do you think they came from? Did they come into existence the same time as the universe, or were they created by something (or someone else)?
I don't think I worded my last question very well. Sorry! What I meant to ask was what people who literally believe in the God and Goddess think they are. Are they spirits? Energy? Something else? Thanks for all the help by the way. This board has already helped me a lot.

[Lord_of_Nightmares]

Thanks for the reply, Lady_Lilith. You said in your post that Wicca doesn't claim a solidified doctrine that explains evil. So what are some of the beliefs that different Wiccans have about evil? Maybe one of them will satisfy my mind.

I really cannot say and I am in the process of reading Valiente, who probably has more to say about evil... But under her E section in ABCs she mentions the evil eye. The evil eye is a pretty common belief around the world, and I feel, personally it is related to the asura. (Though I have not looked this up. Something to do later.) I never studied much of the evil doctrine or the problem of evil in Wicca or the beliefs, as opposed to other religions such as Hinduism, Mesopotamian, etc. I would think a majority would just come to their own conclusions. But if I see anything mentioned from others I will certainly get back to you.

(The published works are kind of silent about it and it's also not a topic I have asked a lot of other Wiccans about.... heh.)

You also asked me to elaborate on what I meant when I asked about an omnipotent God and Goddess. Basically, I was asking what the God and Goddess have the ability to do.

Like I said, the gods may differ in covens. I know though, there is an Aztec god named Tezcatlipoca who can read minds (And hearts!) and is omnipresent. However, I don't think he is omnipresent in such a manner as they say in monotheism, and he certainly is not around the world. But you could say if you are a follower of his, he never "sleeps" when watching you.

I know that the Prime Mover is probably the only omnipotent being within Wicca. But can the God and Goddess see the thoughts and feelings of their followers? If they are part of nature and the Earth, are they present everywhere at once? Even though they don't want to interfere with the balance of things in our world, could they?

I see gods' powers in such a manner as you see with super heroes. Not all of them have the same abilities or powers, but working together they can cover quite a bit of ground. This is the easiest modern comparison I have. You can take any number of super heroes and compare them, as with the recent Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, the Flash, etc and you see they have different abilities/powers. Similar to something like that, I think. (A lot of them were based on gods/myths too, hey! )

If you believe Aradia-Isis-Aphrodite-Ishtar are the same like me, however, you can always check epithets for their abilties, which are usually accurate. Isis is "she who makes the right use of the heart". While that is not saying she reads hearts, I would take it as she does because it is definitely implied.

I would not say they don't want to interfere. Just that they don't do it 100% of the time. This is because they have their own goals and motivations we may not know about or consider. They don't think like us from my experience.

I don't think they're present everywhere at once. They may do that independently if they wanted to... But that has never been my experience with any of them.

The UPG you wrote about was very interesting. I read up some on the Asura last night. Where do you think they came from? Did they come into existence the same time as the universe, or were they created by something (or someone else)?

I believe similarly to the Asian why of thinking. The Hindus call it brahman, Chinese dao, Greeks/Nordics/Romans etc primordial chaos, New Agers the universe, I prefer calling it chaos, the void, ultimate reality, or nothingness. It's the same as the prime mover or drygten, it brought everything into existence including the gods and the asuras.

Notes from history: Just fyi, a lot of Western occultism including Wicca was influenced by the East, but I see they usually leave the beliefs of the asura out for some reason.... (Never could figure out why. English translations usually call them "demons" which is a bit inaccurate.) However, the beliefs in brahman/void[etc] is found in Crowley's works from Hinduism, and Gardner ripped a bunch of Crowley's works off, until Valiente rewrote and changed much of it and made Wicca more "original". I had the Goetic text with a forward by Crowley which I never read before until recently, and I understood every single thing he said about "nothingness" that created all, even though it was my first time reading anything by him and I only really knew it from my Asian studies. The prime mover is most likely rooted in both Crowley's works and Hinduism. In fact, besides Hermeticism's monism, I am pretty confident that "prime mover" did come from Crowley's works which he adapted from India. (Gardner was a monotheist though Wicca is more monistic set up, and Hermeticism originally sought harmony between paganism and Christianity, so it had monism. Anyway, that's getting too deep into the subject! I'm rambling! )

I would say, like humanity, I consider it to be neutral. Though more of a true neutral than humanity is. I also think this thing is imminent, created everything, is in everything.... sort of pantheistic belief. However, I do not consider it a deity so I am not pantheistic. (It is above everything else.) So, I call it monism.

I don't think I worded my last question very well. Sorry! What I meant to ask was what people who literally believe in the God and Goddess think they are. Are they spirits? Energy? Something else? Thanks for all the help by the way. This board has already helped me a lot.

This is my thing, beliefs may slightly differ. Some believe they are literal spirits, this is more of my belief in them. Some think of them as thought forms (tulpas) who were created by peoples' minds and are not independent because of the energy giving to them. (Basically, they exist because people think about them and put energy into their existence.)

Some think of them as just energies or peoples' ascribed concept of such natural things that we cannot understand them. This is a bit more of a pantheistic approach.

My personal beliefs are they are not human, same with asura, and tend to feed off/benefit more from positive emotions, compared to the opposites the asura who feed off the negative. (I got this belief mostly from Japan, haha. It's a big mythos structure from India they have.) Born as powerful spirits, they do not have physical bodies like we do. They are affected, as most spiritual things are, by emotions, mental states, and the mind greatly. (Even if it's just their minds.) They can do things we can't but we can do things they cannot.

You are welcome btw. If you want to ask more personal questions or whatever, feel free to private message me when you like. I am happy to help you on your journey if I can.