Everything Under the Moon

@Snowcat - Thanks. I figured it couldn't hurt to ask with your level of experience sometimes "simple truths" become evident.

@Imperious - I am tempted to disgorge my full opinions on Crowley's development of Thelema, but I won't. The truth is that even if he was mis-applying Levi's concept of truth in self it doesn't matter because he chose to re-create a loop that trapped Zoroaster and all of the monotheists who came after him. And I refuse to partake in a system that sets a requirement of perfection on anything.

I will never "perfect". So I can never reach the balance Thelema "requires" that I may experience faith in that model.

I could get much closer under Levi's model. The Paradoxes of the Highest Science, is a fantastic tome to explore if you can go past the "show" that is the majority of writing on magic. And the core concept that you really have to answer a gigantic list of pedantic questions from and to yourself just to start the process of digging into who you are and why you want to practice magic in the first place. From which comes my favorite Levi quote-"To practice magic is to be a quack, to know magic is to be a sage".
Don't be insulted by that anyone, it's part of a much larger context of paradoxes that are very helpful in tuning your mind to what is really in your "soul". Like, To live is to suffer, to know how to live is to be happy.
I'll link that for anyone who hasn't had a chance to read it. http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/levi/phs/index.htm

That bit of "faith" you say everyone has to a degree...I'm not sure I do. I believe nothing against evidence. I have the ability to say, "I know things will work out", even when I have no evidence of how they will work out. But I do get a feeling, an intuition when things will work out.
Does that count? Because for me that intuition feeling is evidence that things will work out.

I don't really feel like I need to prove magic works using science to describe it. I do however feel that what I know of science and my cosmological model doesn't disallow magic as I understand it.
And yes the topic of faith alone, is intimidating, and I still feel that "will" is a very massive subject on it's own.

But for the purposes of the majority of new people interested in magic as a part of a spiritual life, I really feel that big discussions about it are very important. "Mundane will" is a glorious label to apply to the physical standard of will used by Law and Philosophy thus far. And we can build on that as we push this subject a little further.

Maybe some of you more experienced practitioners who do have real world contacts, and meet people in person or at coven meetings, or festivals and events can ask other people to write out their concepts of will and we can share on them here on these forums. My biggest shortcoming right now is scope and reach. I don't know any other Wiccans other than my wife and we are technically solitary eclectic practitioners who don't really do much spell work, or ceremonial ritual.
I spend a lot of time reading. And making and unmaking symbols, and such. But it's all from curiosity and less from a need to practice.

It has been enlightening though.
Thank you all.
I hope we get to keep discussing it.

@Imperious - I am tempted to disgorge my full opinions on Crowley's development of Thelema, but I won't. The truth is that even if he was mis-applying Levi's concept of truth in self it doesn't matter because he chose to re-create a loop that trapped Zoroaster and all of the monotheists who came after him. And I refuse to partake in a system that sets a requirement of perfection on anything.

Don't mistake me for a Thelemite, bud - nor even a fan of Crowley's. His was a practice largely built on obfuscation, and the presentation of "facts" that were nothing of the kind. I generally view hermetic occultists with suspicion, but that's another topic.

That bit of "faith" you say everyone has to a degree...I'm not sure I do. I believe nothing against evidence. I have the ability to say, "I know things will work out", even when I have no evidence of how they will work out. But I do get a feeling, an intuition when things will work out.
Does that count? Because for me that intuition feeling is evidence that things will work out.

I've yet to meet someone that doesn't take certain things on faith.

Clearly, blind faith isn't that great... But can still be useful, dependent upon the situation. Ultimately, most magical practices require a certain amount of heuristic application because you can never accurately predict exactly what the outcome of a working will be. Ultimately, it's not up to us to decide. This is why more gifted Craft members accurately assess what it is they want to achieve with a ritual, rather than what they want to happen.

For example, let's say two witches are struggling with cash:

1) The less talented witch might craft a ritual or spell that requests more money. There can be only one result that'll be considered a success, and the balance factor makes it highly improbable.

2) The more talented witch might craft a ritual or spell that requests less financial pressure. This witch could now have a multitude of results considered a success, and the balance factor (in accordance with the power of the witch and their will) will decide what's best.

This type of "faith", that the right result will come about, is what I'm describing. It's a necessary part of any magical working, and will get stronger the more success you manifest.

I hope that's clearer.

The problem, is that alchemy doesn't describe the will in the way we are in this thread. "Will", or the true will, is the subconscious aspect of divinity that pushes you on your way to spiritual development.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

I believe we are in an elaborate divine system where the ripples of our "will" in the physical world are felt even in the higher spiritual planes. For me, true will should affect not just this world but the other realms too, inspiring the energies, forces and powers there to react to our willful thoughts and actions. Based on our will, the universe reacts in order to bring about the desired result.

Using our will is elevating us, humans as equal partners in bringing the worlds to their complete state.

That bit of "faith" you say everyone has to a degree...I'm not sure I do. I believe nothing against evidence. I have the ability to say, "I know things will work out", even when I have no evidence of how they will work out. But I do get a feeling, an intuition when things will work out.
Does that count? Because for me that intuition feeling is evidence that things will work out.

This is me too. Yep, I'm aware most people assume that my magick refers to blind faith. However for me, this isn't the case. For some reason, I always seek a scientific explanation to the point that I make my own version of science . Blind leaps of faith have nothing to do with knowledge; they are expressions of what one wants and desires to be true, not what is in fact necessarily true.

My faith begins in the mind as intellectual faith, formed after hard rational work and research. Ultimate contemplation of the universe and how it is created and systematized helps me achieve this intellectual faith.

Knowing in my mind how universe works is the first step for me to have this faith. After I readily acknowledge this, I can work on developing my intuition and slowly begin to feel it internally. Rather than pure intellectual belief, my faith should be defined as the act of knowing beyond any accepted reasons. It's the basic requirement of faith, I think.

With time and dedication, I live a life permeated by faith. Faith is developed throughout many, many years and demands to be repeatedly contemplated. Intuition or clear knowing becomes essential when life throws me Miley's wrecking ball which may cause me to lose balance and doubt that these perceived things truly are for the best.

Through the means of my will, I choose whether to trust my intuition (in spite of any obstacles) or to shun it because of its seeming illogicality. Faith is understanding that I can't explain and understand the totality of my intuition, but recognizing and accepting that everything serves a purpose despite this.

Once I know logically how the universe works (in my own explanation), and I've started practicing trusting my intuition regularly, I can now engage in performing magick. This feeling of faith gives me a sense of security knowing that I'm doing the right thing as my mind, emotions and actions are individually directed and handled by my will.

This question of faith is absolutely fascinating to me, as someone who has always struggled with "belief". I hope you'll join me in another discussion thread I started about the role of faith and belief in your spirituality.

Ultimately, most magical practices require a certain amount of heuristic application because you can never accurately predict exactly what the outcome of a working will be.

Now you'd think I would have considered that having spent 10 years working in instructional systems design and training.

Discovery by self guided process is one of the most effective learning and training methodologies there is. And it's because people have been learning in that way, since before we started being people.


@Xiao - I'll have to look in to that other thread because faith has fascinated me for as long as I can remember.

Thank you!

Faith is understanding that I can't explain and understand the totality of my intuition, but recognizing and accepting that everything serves a purpose despite this.

That is something I cannot abide. While I can believe that "some things happen for a reason", I still know that entropy and chaos have a function. Random, is real, though slightly less common than most people would think.

Chaos and randomness are known to many people very well. Actually, I reckon I spend a third of my life, chaotic. By day, I walk about making rational decisions and at least attempting to make sense and understandable. But then at night, strange things happen. I lie in stillness and chaos and entropy sets in. I survive, but I think only because I quarantine the randomness and chaos to the privacy of my own room.

I believe the world is filled with chaos, infinitely more than it is with order. For without chaos there's no world. But still, I believe they have purpose and function in my life.

Actually, I reckon I spend a third of my life, chaotic. By day, I walk about making rational decisions and at least attempting to make sense and understandable. But then at night, strange things happen. I lie in stillness and chaos and entropy sets in. I survive, but I think only because I quarantine the randomness and chaos to the privacy of my own room.

There's a small (I suppose you could call it) religious group, linked to Satanism, known as the Temple of the Vampire. Their view of reality somewhat mirrors what you're saying here, in that the daytime is when you are your most rational, sceptical and cynical self; everything is up for scrutiny, and it's all about the truth of science and the five senses.

At night, however, they suspend disbelief and practice magic. The imagination runs riot, the ritual chamber becomes a tangible part of the universe, and their reality becomes built of the five elements.

For those of power and experience, the goal is to reach the "twilight" - where what you do at night leaves footprints during the day.

Deliberate psychic vampirism is a moral issue for many witches and warlocks, as Satanism is I'd wager, but it's hard not to see the poetry in this approach.

Sometimes you guys make me feel as dumb as a box of rocks.

.. And strangely , I enjoy the crap out of this.

Always things to learn here!

One thing that will shouldn't be used for, is the manipulation of others. Although, if I could manipulate a couple of nurses to do their computer charting properly, and respond to my emails about their repeated mistakes, I might make an exception. Today was a very long day.

Snow

Heh! I hope tomorrow is a better day for ya.

There's a small (I suppose you could call it) religious group, linked to Satanism, known as the Temple of the Vampire. Their view of reality somewhat mirrors what you're saying here, in that the daytime is when you are your most rational, sceptical and cynical self; everything is up for scrutiny, and it's all about the truth of science and the five senses.

At night, however, they suspend disbelief and practice magic. The imagination runs riot, the ritual chamber becomes a tangible part of the universe, and their reality becomes built of the five elements.

For those of power and experience, the goal is to reach the "twilight" - where what you do at night leaves footprints during the day.

Yeah, the dayside and nightside of vampirism, I'm aware of that but didn't realize its similarity in my beliefs till you mentioned it. Thank you!