Wiccan - Pagan

[[Moondaughter]]

Ok, so please don't get mad at me, but I have a very, well stupid question. A lot of times my friends and family will ask me" What is the difference between a Wiccan and a Pagan?" and I have to be like "umm I don't know," because I don't. I know this is like a question that gets answered when you first get into wicca and paganism and such, but it is just little old me practing wicca, that I know of, in my little state of Delaware, and so yeah. And I know that a lot Pagans will argue until the end of their incarnation that there are not fluffy wiccan, and I know that a lot of wiccans think pagans are kinda dark. But that is were my knowledge stops. So please, help me, I hate being ignorant, especially when it comes to my own religion.

[Blazewind]

I won't get mad at you, and that is not a stupid question. Note my signature. The simple answer to your question is that wicca is a type of paganism. There are other branches of pananism too, but I can't tell you anything about them because I have never learned about that though. I do know that pagans are followers of earth based religions, and that they believe in the 'old gods', ones that were beilieved in before the rise of christianity. I hope that helps a bit.

[Eretik]

Initiatory Wicca is a religious faith,with doctrines and tenets to follow and a clergy.Eclectic Wicca is the path followed by many solitaries , and varies greatly in practice. Some Wiccans practise witchcraft, some do not. Some Witches are Wiccan, others are not. Clear as mud,eh.Pagan is a general term used to describe those who follow a spirituality ,faith and/ or religion that is not Abrahamic in origin,i.e. not montheistic/dualistic.Paganism can be theistic [belief in deity] or auto theistic [ belief in self as divine] or non theistic [belief in humanity as divine or animism or athiesm]
There are many types of Witchcraft and of Paganism. There is reconstructionism ,as in Hellenistic [Greek polytheism] and Asatru[Norse/Germanic].There is formal occultist systems Ceremonialism and Chaos magick,for example.There are witches who will hex and those who won't.There is left hand path and right hand path - RHP is the type where selfless action and unity with the divine is desired.LHP is where divinity is sought within the self and interaction wth the dvine is personal. There is a lot of variety. There are no stupid questions.

[Eretik]

Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikpedia.org/wiki/Paganism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

[[cherokeewind]]

I already knew the answer to your question. Problem is only found one part of it in Webster online dictionary. From what I remember Wicca means to bend or shape, such as in influencing the future. There is an Old English spelling for Wicca Craft, but can't seem to find it. I found old Wicca spelling under Witch. In old times it was Wicca Craft, Craft of the Wise, even just Witchcraft. In recent times it has become a brand of Paganism. Some have successfully hijacked the meaning of the original words. The link on wicca Eretik gave above can help you with that.

Webster dictionary for Witch
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?s ... h&va=Witch

Pronunciation: 'wich
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard & wicce, feminine, witch; akin to Middle High German wicken to bewitch, Old English wigle divination, and perhaps to Old High German wIh holy

It reminds me of how at the time the New Testament of the Christian Bible was written. You had Christians, a follower of Jesus Christ. Centuries later different sects have arisen...Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Full Gospel, Charismatic, Mormons, Jehovah Witness, etc. Some Christians are Baptist. Not all Baptist are Christians.

[Eretik]

WICCA [online etymology dictionary]


An O.E. masc. noun meaning "male witch, wizard, soothsayer, sorcerer, magician;" see witch. Use of the word in modern contexts traces to English folklorist Gerald Gardner (1884-1964), who is said to have joined circa 1939 an occult group in New Forest, Hampshire, England, for which he claimed an unbroken tradition to medieval times. Gardner seems to have first used it in print in 1954, in his book "Witchcraft Today" (e.g.: "Witches were the Wica or wise people, with herbal knowledge and a working occult teaching usually used for good ...."). In published and unpublished material, he apparently only ever used the word as a mass noun referring to adherents of the practice and not as the name of the practice itself. Some of his followers continue to use it in this sense. According to Gardner's book "The Meaning of Witchcraft" (1959), the word, as used in the initiation ceremony, played a key role in his experience:
I realised that I had stumbled upon something interesting; but I was half-initiated before the word, 'Wica' which they used hit me like a thunderbolt, and I knew where I was, and that the Old Religion still existed. And so I found myself in the Circle, and there took the usual oath of secrecy, which bound me not to reveal certain things.
In the late 1960s the term came into use as the title of a modern pagan movement associated with witchcraft. The first printed reference in this usage seems to be 1969, in "The Truth About Witchcraft" by freelance author Hans Holzer:
"If the practice of the Old Religion, which is also called Wicca (Craft of the Wise), and thence, witchcraft, is a reputable and useful cult, then it is worthy of public interest."
And, quoting witch Alex Sanders:
"No, a witch wedding still needs a civil ceremony to make it legal. Wicca itself as a religion is not registered yet. But it is about time somebody registered it, I think. I've done all I can to call attention to our religion."

#Sanders was a highly visible representative of neo-pagan Witchcraft in the late 1960s and early 1970s. During this time he appears to have popularized use of the term in this sense. Later books c.1989 teaching modernized witchcraft using the same term account for its rise and popularity, especially in U.S.
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#WITCH [online etymology dictionary]

O.E. wicce "female magician, sorceress," in later use esp. "a woman supposed to have dealings with the devil or evil spirits and to be able by their cooperation to perform supernatural acts," fem. of O.E. wicca "sorcerer, wizard, man who practices witchcraft or magic," from verb wiccian "to practice witchcraft" (cf. Low Ger. wikken, wicken "to use witchcraft," wikker, wicker "soothsayer"). OED says of uncertain origin. Klein suggests connection with O.E. wigle "divination," and wig, wih "idol." Watkins says the nouns represent a P.Gmc. *wikkjaz "necromancer" (one who wakes the dead), from PIE *weg-yo-, from *weg- "to be strong, be lively." That wicce once had a more specific sense than the later general one of "female magician, sorceress" perhaps is suggested by the presence of other words in O.E. describing more specific kinds of magical craft. In the Laws of Ælfred (c.890), witchcraft was specifically singled out as a woman's craft, whose practitioners were not to be suffered to live among the W. Saxons:
"Ða fæmnan þe gewuniað onfon gealdorcræftigan & scinlæcan & wiccan, ne læt þu ða libban."
The other two words combined with it here are gealdricge, a woman who practices "incantations," and scinlæce "female wizard, woman magician," from a root meaning "phantom, evil spirit." Another word that appears in the Anglo-Saxon laws is lyblæca "wizard, sorcerer," but with suggestions of skill in the use of drugs, since the root of the word is lybb "drug, poison, charm." Lybbestre was a fem. word meaning "sorceress," and lybcorn was the name of a certain medicinal seed (perhaps wild saffron). Weekly notes possible connection to Gothic weihs "holy" and Ger. weihan "consecrate," and writes, "the priests of a suppressed religion naturally become magicians to its successors or opponents." In Anglo-Saxon glossaries, wicca renders L. augur (c.1100), and wicce stands for "pythoness, divinatricem." In the "Three Kings of Cologne" (c.1400) wicca translates Magi:
"Þe paynyms ... cleped þe iij kyngis Magos, þat is to seye wicchis."
The glossary translates L. necromantia ("demonum invocatio") with galdre, wiccecræft. The Anglo-Saxon poem called "Men's Crafts" has wiccræft, which appears to be the same word, and by its context means "skill with horses." In a c.1250 translation of "Exodus," witches is used of the Egyptian midwives who save the newborn sons of the Hebrews: "Ðe wicches hidden hem for-ðan, Biforen pharaun nolden he ben." Witch in ref. to a man survived in dialect into 20c., but the fem. form was so dominant by 1601 that men-witches or he-witch began to be used. Extended sense of "young woman or girl of bewitching aspect or manners" is first recorded 1740. Witch doctor is from 1718; applied to African magicians from 1836.
"At this day it is indifferent to say in the English tongue, 'she is a witch,' or 'she is a wise woman.' " [Reginald Scot, "The Discoverie of Witchcraft," 1584]
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[[cherokeewind]]

(c.1400) wicca translates Magi:

That really caught my attention. Back when I was a Christian, studied Greek words in the Bible. In the Christmas scene, the Wise Men who brought gifts to Jesus Christ...is the magoi which is plural for the Greek word translated Magi, a Magus, Sorcerer. I took the time to look this up in Textus Receptus, the original Greek Bible translators of the King James Bible used. It has a literal translation in English under the Greek words. And below Magoi, the translators used Magi.

In other words, it could of been translated in MATTHEW CHAPT 2 as Wiccans instead of Wise Men. At Christmas time in the Manger scenes, need to be changed. The 3 Wise Men should be wearing pentagrams and wizard hats while giving gifts to Jesus. Who else could have followed a star in the sky to find a person meant to be a king?

I should point out why King James Version and other older translations of the Bible used Textus Receptus aka Recieved Text. It was compiled from the majority of Greek text which had survived throughout the world. In the Old Monasteries when a scribe would intentionally delete words while making copies of the Bible...these, when it was discovered, got thrown in the trash can. The search for older copies of the Greek Bible, brought some of them into the hands of liberal scholars. This compiled deleted text, is the one used by modern liberal translations or versions. So, Magi is the Greek for "Wise Men" in the Christmas scene.

[Eretik]

Origins and etymology of 'Magi'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi

Older than Greek,certainly not transferable as Wiccan.Wicca is a modern religion,to be Wiccan means you follow Wicca ,Wicca did not exist before Gerald Gardner.Witchcraft did,however.The etymology of 'Wicca' and 'Witch' above explains the differences.

[[cherokeewind]]

I see...

According to Herodotus i. 101, which lists the names of the six tribes or castes of the Medes, the Magi were a hereditary caste of priests. They were highly influential in Median society until the unification of the Median and Persian Empires in 550 BC, after which their power was curtailed by Cyrus the Great and by Cyrus' son Cambyses II. The Magi revolted against Cambyses and set up a rival claimant to the throne, one of their own, who took the name of Smerdis. Smerdis and his forces were defeated by the Persians under Darius I. The Magi continued to exist in unified Persia, but their influence was limited after this and other political setbacks, and it was not until the Sassanid era (AD 226–650) that they would again achieve prominence.

The Book of Jeremiah (39:3, 39:13) gives a title rab mag "chief magus" to the head of the Magi, Nergal Sharezar (Septuagint, Vulgate and KJV mistranslate Rabmag as a separate character). It's also believed by some Christians that the Jewish prophet Daniel was "rab mag" and entrusted a Messianic vision (to be announced in due time by a "star") to a secret sect of the Magi for its eventual fulfillment (Daniel 4:9; 5: 11).

This is the Greek usage

While, in Herodotus, magos refers to the priestly caste and tribe of the Medes, (1.101) said to be able to interpret dreams (7.37), it could also be used for any enchanter or wizard, and especially to charlatans or quacks (see also goetia), especially by philosophers such as Heraclitus who took a sceptical view of the art of an enchanter, and in comic literature (Lucian's Lucios or the Ass). In Hellenism, magos started to be used as an adjective, meaning "magical", as in magas techne "ars magica" (e.g. used by Philostratus).

I've read something about Gardner changing some rites or old traditions (my Wicca lessons when first Pagan). I'm not familiar with what all he did. If he was the one to start Wiccan religion, that explains why they mentioned Gardner in my lessons. There was a Gardnarian tradition. Apparently it must have been a foundation for other Wiccan traditions.

[Eretik]

He started it,yes.The story is interesting. Initiatory Wicca was founded by Gerald Gardner[Gardnerian,] but other trads. came from from it. I'll see if I can find any thing interesting or you could look it up yourself too.

[[cherokeewind]]

I came across something interesting concerning "rites of passage". I was researching Medicine Bags, what some NeoPagan Shaman call "totem bags".

A person while still a teenager, went into the wilderness, after consulting an elder or Medicine Man. This is a Vision Quest of 2-4 days, to be fasting, except for water. They were to stay in a circle until finished. Family and friends could bring water, stay outside the circle.

It would be nearly impossible to do this in modern times. Some of the old time witches had to go through a similar type initiation. One in particular, I believe was from England, had to go into the mountains of Germany (?) a couple days.

There probably isn't very many teenagers or Witches (at any age) you could get to sit in a circle for 2-4 days.

Once a Wiccan who had been initiated into a couple different traditions...said the purpose for having initiations in Wicca, is to prevent new coven members from going out and starting a group of their own.

I sat and camped with some 3rd degree Gardnarians at a festival once. This was after started learning Native ceremonies. That was an interesting experience.

[Eretik]

Rites of passage are fascinating. In 'Celtic' tradition a new name was given on reaching adulthood, somewhat similar to Catholic rites later[confirmation]. The story of Setanta is interesting,in that he got his adult name as a 'geis' or penance - he mistakenly killed his host's hound and had to take it's place guarding the enclosure at night - this is how he came to be known as 'Cuchulain' - or in English,'the hound of Culllen'.This is a legend and may be based in fact or not,but it's a rollicking good story anyway.
I go out into the wild places often,but unfortunately I can no longer go off for days on end, as family commitments have priority.The Shaman does his/her best work outside,I work out in the open ,mostly.
There is a school of thought on this ,in regard to the rite of adulthood, in Scots Neolithic societies. At the moment it is speculation,but dna testing etc. is proving more each day.This may have involved temporary incarceration[in Shamanism it is a 'little death''] in the 'Sacred place of the ancestors' as a means of gaining the knowledge of past and present. It is known that these tombs were used for ceremonial purposes and there have been numerous offerings placed in these tombs long after the burials ,for an extended period of time. In most of these places[where these people lived] there were no caves and no wooded areas to speak of, so it may be that the 'womb of the earth' was symbolically substituted, by the cairns and passage tombs [barrows/mounds] this also gives direct contact with the ancestral spirits.We had stone circles nearby also. I have been to some sites and the geomagnetic resonance there is still strong.I had strange experiences growing up which chime with this, I often still have them now. That is of course Unverifiable personal gnosis, but I 'saw' places I have since visited and now know to be real,in visions,which at the time, made no sense. I use bags with amulets/herbs etc. It's handy and common across many cultures. My gran used to do this with herbs,when we got sick.She was not 'neo' anything,nor am I.[sorry,but I don't like that term Neo- Shaman, it smacks of insincerity and moneymaking,I did not choose this, I am not 'Core'either] I follow where I am lead, by my spiritual ancestors,mostly. I am grumpy about that,it's not personal. I like your progression of thought.

[[cherokeewind]]

You can drift in and out of visions sometimes, while meditating using a circle or forming your bubble of energy. I've done that plenty of times. Later, as it turned out many of them must have been a type of astral travel.

We have Indian burial grounds here in the United States, where they built mounds. I think some Indians got the name given to them as "Mound Builders".

One of the oldest stone circle known in this area is in Lakota territory, I think near the city of Big Horn. The stone circle is 3,000+ years old. There are like Sun rays coming from the inner circle. It is believed these could be pointing to stars, constellations.

[Eretik]

I know that the ancient peoples of the Northern latitudes have much in common. Some of the folk of Northern Europe crossed the Bering strait,[it used to be a land bridge,once, but we had boats that were seaworthy too] mingling with those already there,as I have no doubt there were people in the Amercas before this migration from Europe [ but I believe evidence is difficult to find, on that, at the moment - so don't quote me on it,more unverifiable.lol] . The crossers were probably the ancestors of the later European 'beaker' people,also,but later migrations are probable too. There is much in the customs and habits of both peoples that is too similar to be discounted .Around 4-3000 yrs ago is the date of the mounds here, consistent with the American dates. I 'll see later, what archeological info. I have, I know I can show you some pictures of our sites. We can compare and contrast.lol.I go to the 'power places' and just sit,I see things there, hours pass like minutes. The local wildlife observes me often. I love it.

[[cherokeewind]]

Here is one of the photos I posted on another site (Native American). The stone was found at a local site, arrow and spear points are far side of the primitive range in style. Different types can date a site. It has a capital T combined with the Tiwaz rune. The Rune and T seem to make up a symbol. I also found the Lakota Weeping Heart symbol carved in the same rock.