Let's take as a for instance the state of Florida which has executed 378 people over the years. They have also freed 22 prisoners from death row. This means that 22 prisoners were sentenced to death but proven innocent before they could be executed! There may be many more of that 378 who were executed wrongly, but we'll never know. Florida still has a murder rate of 5 in 100,000 - higher than we have here in Wisconsin where we don't have the death penalty (yet). Even if there were any evidence that the death penalty had made the world better in Florida, I think the fact that 22 innocent people had to spend time on Death Row is too high a price, much less the unknown number of innocent folk who have been executed. And when you start looking at factors like race and economics, death penalty statistics become even more grim.As for innocent people, well that's life. Sometimes stuff like that has to happen to make better of the world we live in. As sad as it may be.
Saddam Hussein and hypocrisy.
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[ForestWitch]
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- Location: Wisconsin
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[Enlightenment]
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- Location: Nottingham, UK
There was never all these murders, rapists, drug dealers, etc. years ago in the UK, I wonder why???
Anyway, as I've said, we all have our own opinions and topics like this always end-up in people arguing and getting up-set, that's why they piss me off because they are pointless, we all know where they lead. Everyone knows that people here are all gonna have their different views on such a strong topic such as this. That's why I don't understand why they are brought up.....
I've said my feelings, people don't agree, that's cool, end of
Blessings!
Anyway, as I've said, we all have our own opinions and topics like this always end-up in people arguing and getting up-set, that's why they piss me off because they are pointless, we all know where they lead. Everyone knows that people here are all gonna have their different views on such a strong topic such as this. That's why I don't understand why they are brought up.....
I've said my feelings, people don't agree, that's cool, end of
Blessings!
There was never all these murders, rapists, drug dealers, etc. years ago in the UK, I wonder why???
Er, yes there were. In Victorian England murder rates were much higher. And that was when we had capital punishment.
Ok. End of. Just had to highlight that misunderstanding.
Maybe now we should talk about marshmallows and kittens?
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[Enlightenment]
- Posts: 429
- Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:18 pm
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- Location: Nottingham, UK
In fact BB is shit every year!!!Did you know?
That CSI evidence can identify a murderer up to 25 years after the crime?
Did you know that the death penelty can only be given on true forensic evidence? If there is none and you are convicted of hearsay evidence, meaning witnesses, you can only receive a life sentence?
Did you know that the statisics on the death penalty not slowing down crime, only began to show that the death penalty didn't work, when appeals began to make delaying it indefintely possible, and the temporary insanity plea became a way of escape.
Did you know that if it was my daughter who was falsely accused, and they have SCI evidence that she was not only there but that she had swung a hammer, or fired the gun, then she was NOT falsey accused.
DID you know that I served my first tour in a war, in IRAQ1 and had to look at the eyes of the children who had lost parents to Saddam's orders.
Did you know I served my country honorably in three different wars? IRAQ, KOSOVO, and BOSNIA, and all the dictators we were there to remove or arrest killed not one, not tens, but hundreds of people? Yet no one complained until it was their one death.
Did you know that, make all the pacts you will, on the day you are looking at the murderer of your child in the face, until the smell of his stench as he walks past you in a court room and smiles at you, because he in this day and age has a 85% chance of escaping the death penalty in Texas and Florida, he is not worried in the least, and even if he gets it he has three appeals that can stretch his death out for 10 years. Ten years in which your child is laying quietly and silently in a grave. Your child had no appeal. Your child couldn't stretch this man murdering them out for ten years. Your child is seeing darkness, while he is seeing the sun through a set of bars.
Did you know that our religions, and this is not Wicca, because Wicca is more gentle than most old pagan religions... We ordered a stop on the death penalty in the Roman Empire, the crime that called for the death for being christian, we called for it to end and it did, and the christians almost wiped us from the planet in thanks. That is what is done every single time you scream 'stop the death penelty'. You allow the person the chance to one day come back and kill you for thanks.
Did you know that 98% of murderers say they are innocent when there is a chance they will die, and admit to it if they are freed? But because we have a law against double jeopardy, they have just gotten away with the crime.
Did you know that people like me stop listening to people scream 'stop the death penalty', when people who scream it start screaming why does our state not have enough money to feed the hungry, or house the poor. Your answer:
Plans to introduce American-style offences of first and second-degree murder have been unveiled by the Government's legal advisers. Crimes where the perpetrator intended to cause their victims serious harm - but not to kill - would be classsified as second-degree murders and would no longer attract mandatory life sentences. Life imprisonment would be reserved for those found guilty of the more serious offence of first-degree murder where a jury decides a killer had an "intention to kill". Will the new laws improve the criminal justice system? Are they fair? Read the article and comment and send us your view using the form below
How do you know if they intended to kill? Did they plan the assult? Did they prepare to kill the victim? DOES IT REALLY MATTER? These questions are asked more when you give someone a death penalty, and it raises the court costs by $100,000 dollars. Big number but let us look at what the other costs are.
88 percent of men and women on death row for murders, after all appeals, if still found guilty, will in total cost 1 million dollars.
88 percent of those serving life sentences will cost a whopping 8 million dollars. Why 8 million? Because life sentences can actually mean as short as 10 years, they are kept in normal populus, not seperately. And they will be parolled should they maintain good behavior. Then when they are out, of that 88%, 60% WILL kill again. In which they have to be retried, re sentenced and then they will get the costs of food, the cost of the prision space, and the cost of everyday life doubled, as well as the cost of a second parole board, the cost of the psychiatrist we supplied because why did rehab fail. WHO CARES. If they had been put to death in the first place then another family would not have suffered what you did.
Not asking for the death penalty is one of the most selfish things on earth, because you worry only about what if it is your child who was FALSELY ACCUSED, well again I say what if it was your child who was killed, and would you really allow another person to suffer as you did?
Exilus
That CSI evidence can identify a murderer up to 25 years after the crime?
Did you know that the death penelty can only be given on true forensic evidence? If there is none and you are convicted of hearsay evidence, meaning witnesses, you can only receive a life sentence?
Did you know that the statisics on the death penalty not slowing down crime, only began to show that the death penalty didn't work, when appeals began to make delaying it indefintely possible, and the temporary insanity plea became a way of escape.
Did you know that if it was my daughter who was falsely accused, and they have SCI evidence that she was not only there but that she had swung a hammer, or fired the gun, then she was NOT falsey accused.
DID you know that I served my first tour in a war, in IRAQ1 and had to look at the eyes of the children who had lost parents to Saddam's orders.
Did you know I served my country honorably in three different wars? IRAQ, KOSOVO, and BOSNIA, and all the dictators we were there to remove or arrest killed not one, not tens, but hundreds of people? Yet no one complained until it was their one death.
Did you know that, make all the pacts you will, on the day you are looking at the murderer of your child in the face, until the smell of his stench as he walks past you in a court room and smiles at you, because he in this day and age has a 85% chance of escaping the death penalty in Texas and Florida, he is not worried in the least, and even if he gets it he has three appeals that can stretch his death out for 10 years. Ten years in which your child is laying quietly and silently in a grave. Your child had no appeal. Your child couldn't stretch this man murdering them out for ten years. Your child is seeing darkness, while he is seeing the sun through a set of bars.
Did you know that our religions, and this is not Wicca, because Wicca is more gentle than most old pagan religions... We ordered a stop on the death penalty in the Roman Empire, the crime that called for the death for being christian, we called for it to end and it did, and the christians almost wiped us from the planet in thanks. That is what is done every single time you scream 'stop the death penelty'. You allow the person the chance to one day come back and kill you for thanks.
Did you know that 98% of murderers say they are innocent when there is a chance they will die, and admit to it if they are freed? But because we have a law against double jeopardy, they have just gotten away with the crime.
Did you know that people like me stop listening to people scream 'stop the death penalty', when people who scream it start screaming why does our state not have enough money to feed the hungry, or house the poor. Your answer:
Plans to introduce American-style offences of first and second-degree murder have been unveiled by the Government's legal advisers. Crimes where the perpetrator intended to cause their victims serious harm - but not to kill - would be classsified as second-degree murders and would no longer attract mandatory life sentences. Life imprisonment would be reserved for those found guilty of the more serious offence of first-degree murder where a jury decides a killer had an "intention to kill". Will the new laws improve the criminal justice system? Are they fair? Read the article and comment and send us your view using the form below
How do you know if they intended to kill? Did they plan the assult? Did they prepare to kill the victim? DOES IT REALLY MATTER? These questions are asked more when you give someone a death penalty, and it raises the court costs by $100,000 dollars. Big number but let us look at what the other costs are.
88 percent of men and women on death row for murders, after all appeals, if still found guilty, will in total cost 1 million dollars.
88 percent of those serving life sentences will cost a whopping 8 million dollars. Why 8 million? Because life sentences can actually mean as short as 10 years, they are kept in normal populus, not seperately. And they will be parolled should they maintain good behavior. Then when they are out, of that 88%, 60% WILL kill again. In which they have to be retried, re sentenced and then they will get the costs of food, the cost of the prision space, and the cost of everyday life doubled, as well as the cost of a second parole board, the cost of the psychiatrist we supplied because why did rehab fail. WHO CARES. If they had been put to death in the first place then another family would not have suffered what you did.
Not asking for the death penalty is one of the most selfish things on earth, because you worry only about what if it is your child who was FALSELY ACCUSED, well again I say what if it was your child who was killed, and would you really allow another person to suffer as you did?
Exilus
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[ForestWitch]
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- Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:01 am
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- Location: Wisconsin
But you still haven't addressed my basic premise which is that the death penalty is harmful to the society which practices it. It adds to an overall devaluation of human life which is how we get these bloody societies and regimes. And you are wrong that nobody was protesting the genocidal actions in Iraq, Kosovo and Bosnia. Amnesty International was extremely vocal about all of those atrocities, just as they've been being vocal about Darfur for months. In the United States, it appears that people don't pay attention to anything unless it's reported on the FOX News Network.
As for the relative cost, California has calculated that their taxpayers pay over $250 million for each death penalty case that ends in execution. They calculate that that's about $114 million more than it costs to simply imprison someone for life.
As for the relative cost, California has calculated that their taxpayers pay over $250 million for each death penalty case that ends in execution. They calculate that that's about $114 million more than it costs to simply imprison someone for life.
Let me ask you this. Your daughter is taken your home, she is raped Violated, beaten, made to suffer for hours on end, and then she is murderedwe stick them in a chair or on a table and then, in 20 seconds at most its over and done with.
We value the murderers human life so much that we give them a quick death as opposed to making them actually live through what the victim did. The killer devalued human life and their own when they commited the crime. The second they did that to another human being the second that they took that persons life and held it as worthless themselves they stopped being human, and became a monster. They showed no value for their victims human life, they devalued it, saw it as not fitting enough to continue to live. But people say over and over again, stop the death penalty the monster is more important and has more right to live than my child did.
Amnesty international...chuckles.. It was them that begged us to put a stop to it yes. But I was meaning more, that in the sence that when they sent us in, people were screaming this wrong, this is genocide. They are murdering all these people, but not one thing was said about involment of the US. See when america moved in all three times, we were told get involved stop this. Then when Lets us saddam since he started this. Then when the country kills him, all of a sudden america did this, america did that, American executed him to stop this and this. No america did what they were asked to do, by the factions of the countries and Bush.
Get saddam and give him his trial by his people. and they convict him, they kill him and like always some bone head wants to blame the US, I don't like Bush I never have. I didn't agree with the Iraq2, But I can honestly say if you want to blame someone for killing a monster then you blame the ones who gave him a trial and convicted him. Don't try and blame a country who after his arrest, actually did nothing more accept build their evidence against him. To show the world ONE of the reasons they went after him was true since the rest proved to be false.
There is your answer on both points
We value the murderers human life so much that we give them a quick death as opposed to making them actually live through what the victim did. The killer devalued human life and their own when they commited the crime. The second they did that to another human being the second that they took that persons life and held it as worthless themselves they stopped being human, and became a monster. They showed no value for their victims human life, they devalued it, saw it as not fitting enough to continue to live. But people say over and over again, stop the death penalty the monster is more important and has more right to live than my child did.
Amnesty international...chuckles.. It was them that begged us to put a stop to it yes. But I was meaning more, that in the sence that when they sent us in, people were screaming this wrong, this is genocide. They are murdering all these people, but not one thing was said about involment of the US. See when america moved in all three times, we were told get involved stop this. Then when Lets us saddam since he started this. Then when the country kills him, all of a sudden america did this, america did that, American executed him to stop this and this. No america did what they were asked to do, by the factions of the countries and Bush.
Get saddam and give him his trial by his people. and they convict him, they kill him and like always some bone head wants to blame the US, I don't like Bush I never have. I didn't agree with the Iraq2, But I can honestly say if you want to blame someone for killing a monster then you blame the ones who gave him a trial and convicted him. Don't try and blame a country who after his arrest, actually did nothing more accept build their evidence against him. To show the world ONE of the reasons they went after him was true since the rest proved to be false.
There is your answer on both points
Exilus, while I agree with you most of the time, on this one I do not agree. To begin with, I do not support the death penalty as it is currently in the US. It is not because I have some warm fuzzy feeling for a murderer, it’s because of the flawed application of it. There are people on death row who were convicted based only on testimony given and are without dna evidence to prove their innocence. We have found something like 150 people in the last 10 years that had been wrongly convicted, sitting on death row waiting to be executed. Those are the ones who had dna evidence still on file and the resources available to do the tests. Some states, like Texas, refuse to go back and review the evidence before throwing the switch. They would rather take the chance of killing innocent people than having to reopen a murder case. This also extends to DA’s who refuse to go back and re-examine evidence because it would look bad on them if it turns out they didn’t find the murderer. The current Duke rape case shows what DA’s seeking reelection will do. We also can go into the instances where DA’s ignored evidence that would have exonerated defendants but ignored it and hid it so they could get a conviction. As it currently stands I cannot support the death penalty because I am not confident that we are not executing innocent people. If they did a massive overhaul and reform of the system where this punishment is involved, I would probably support. Until then, no.
You were quite elegant in your argument for the death penalty involving the death of someone’s daughter. I ask you, how would you feel if it was found out that someone’s son, father, mother, daughter, brother, sister, friend was executed in your name because of a mistake. The system needs an overhaul before anymore are done.
As far as Saddam, he was an evil man that deserved to be executed. He should have been tried in the World Court for crimes against humanity though, not in Iraq. He wasn’t because of the reasons listed by Hedgewitch. His execution was a mess. Saying that it was all the Iraqis is wrong. He was hung on a US base. He was in US custody the entire time until right before the execution. We brought all those people there. We were in charge of security and let a cell phone in. We knew what was going on. Bush wanted him dead and screwed that up to. We could have easily made sure it was a dignified event and that there would be no recordings that would make him into a martyr. We didn’t though. I tend to suspect that that is what Bush wanted. Is it 2008 yet?
You were quite elegant in your argument for the death penalty involving the death of someone’s daughter. I ask you, how would you feel if it was found out that someone’s son, father, mother, daughter, brother, sister, friend was executed in your name because of a mistake. The system needs an overhaul before anymore are done.
As far as Saddam, he was an evil man that deserved to be executed. He should have been tried in the World Court for crimes against humanity though, not in Iraq. He wasn’t because of the reasons listed by Hedgewitch. His execution was a mess. Saying that it was all the Iraqis is wrong. He was hung on a US base. He was in US custody the entire time until right before the execution. We brought all those people there. We were in charge of security and let a cell phone in. We knew what was going on. Bush wanted him dead and screwed that up to. We could have easily made sure it was a dignified event and that there would be no recordings that would make him into a martyr. We didn’t though. I tend to suspect that that is what Bush wanted. Is it 2008 yet?
Only through silence can we truly hear the words of the Goddess and God.
The point is NOT whether they deserve it. Everyone supporting capital punishment on this thread does not seem to realise that. I am not debating whether they deserve to live or die. I don't believe I have the right to decide whether another human being lives or dies. I am debating the logic behind the death penalty.
I put forward the notion that is is hypocritical to punish someone for killing another person - by killing them. That was my point. Ranting about 'Imagine if such and such had happened to one of your family' does not answer this part of the debate.
I put forward the notion that is is hypocritical to punish someone for killing another person - by killing them. That was my point. Ranting about 'Imagine if such and such had happened to one of your family' does not answer this part of the debate.
The question of how I would feel if I found out that the wrong person was killed. I will answer that with the simple, do I beleive it. because people will always attempt to claim that they or their family didnt do it. Because they do not wish to beleive that their family members will be a monster, I just did a random search on the internet number death row appeals, and acording to the rules of an appeal, you have to present new evedence that shows you are innocent or draws the possibility of reasonable dought. Off 223 cases in florida, only 30 cases presented new evidence enough to be given a complete new trial. 78 admitted to the crime afer being convicted, and a whopping 100 didn't even try to over turn their conviction because the eveidence was absolute, and 15 cases actually hadnot one but 4 total trials, each time presenting evidence that they were possibly innocent. But were still convicted because most of their new evidence I can tell from those 15 cases they tried to say that the DNA evidence was false. That they misread it or there were flaws in the DNA testing some how.
Each time they were still convicted because it was proven that the testing was not flawed. So I would have to have absolute evidence they did not commit the crime. Even if I did have absolute evidence, that the person was innocent it would have had to come before their execution, at which time I would have helped saved the mans life. Because when punishment has been delt there is no bringing it back, but taking away the death penalty is not the answer, because the second you do that you take away any chance for true punishment of the crime.
I agree there are flaws but compared to the systems used in the past, our is almost perfect.
According to the UN and EU in europe saddam was released to Iraq 3 weeks prior to the execution, He was turned over by Un mandate. That he was to be turned over to the IRAQs for punishment. But the Iraq Government turned him back over to the US after attempt was made to an escape. Because Iraq to this date still lacks the ability to hold him properly.
I wish it was 2008, because this administration has made so many mistakes and done so much you can't tell what is right or wrong but untill someone new is elected and the bone heads of the US take a bush out of office and DONT put his brother in when he runs in 2012 we will never have a straight chance at doing any thing correctly. So instead of complaining all we can do is wait, because we are gonna change nothing right now. Bush is set in his path, its to late to do anything now.
You don't have to agree with me, that is the bueaty of being seperate people, but it can be discussed with out argueing.
Each time they were still convicted because it was proven that the testing was not flawed. So I would have to have absolute evidence they did not commit the crime. Even if I did have absolute evidence, that the person was innocent it would have had to come before their execution, at which time I would have helped saved the mans life. Because when punishment has been delt there is no bringing it back, but taking away the death penalty is not the answer, because the second you do that you take away any chance for true punishment of the crime.
I agree there are flaws but compared to the systems used in the past, our is almost perfect.
According to the UN and EU in europe saddam was released to Iraq 3 weeks prior to the execution, He was turned over by Un mandate. That he was to be turned over to the IRAQs for punishment. But the Iraq Government turned him back over to the US after attempt was made to an escape. Because Iraq to this date still lacks the ability to hold him properly.
I wish it was 2008, because this administration has made so many mistakes and done so much you can't tell what is right or wrong but untill someone new is elected and the bone heads of the US take a bush out of office and DONT put his brother in when he runs in 2012 we will never have a straight chance at doing any thing correctly. So instead of complaining all we can do is wait, because we are gonna change nothing right now. Bush is set in his path, its to late to do anything now.
You don't have to agree with me, that is the bueaty of being seperate people, but it can be discussed with out argueing.
I absolutely appreciate your stance, and I do believe he deserved to pay a high price for his crimes. But we differ on how he should have been punished.
No-one yet has answered my initial question of the hypocrisy of the death penalty, but that is because it cannot be answered successfully.
Anyway - I really like marshmallows but I'm allergic to cats so kittens can bugger off.
No-one yet has answered my initial question of the hypocrisy of the death penalty, but that is because it cannot be answered successfully.
Anyway - I really like marshmallows but I'm allergic to cats so kittens can bugger off.
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