Paganism: When There Aren't Any Gods

[IsaacIcarus]

Excellent thread, thank you! This is something I've been struggling with in my own path, I'll be sure to check out those resources so I can grow in my connection to the Lady and Lord.

[demoiselle]

This thread was incredibly helpful to me. Thank you.

[Shekinah]

I love your posts, Xiao. Very thoughtfully written.

I might add that the ancient Hindu texts the Rig Veda state that 'We created the Gods' and that thus they are simply divine projections of ourselves.

'Magic/ritual' is simply one method we use for access to them.

The only thing that can be truly known in this incomprehensible universe, is ourselves. We, our consciousness, our experience, is the universe.

Out of the void, we are the creator.

We are 'God'.

You are very wise and speak an ancient truth unknown or overlooked by almost everyone. This is exactly what we learned from the "Agency's" Star Gate program. We are Akasha (Akashic Records) and Akasha is Spirit and the Gods are manifestations of Spirit. "A pre-existing God did not create the Cosmos but rather the life phenomenon entangled throughout the Cosmos is morphing into (Cosmic Consciousness) God" We are the units of awareness comprising Spirit.

[Firebird]

I love your posts, Xiao. Very thoughtfully written.

I might add that the ancient Hindu texts the Rig Veda state that 'We created the Gods' and that thus they are simply divine projections of ourselves.

'Magic/ritual' is simply one method we use for access to them.

The only thing that can be truly known in this incomprehensible universe, is ourselves. We, our consciousness, our experience, is the universe.

Out of the void, we are the creator.

We are 'God'.

Wonderful insight Dark Moon. The Pantheon are thought beings of our creation materialized by visualization and conjuration by practitioners of our art over tens of thousands of years. These require our recurrent mental energies and thusly they are eager to work with us. Collectively the life phenomenon across the space/time is entangled as Spirit. A pre-existent God did not create the multiverse but rather the multiverse via the life phenomenon is evolving a God.

you must really have liked her post Shekinah lol....miss that poster, we hadn't heard back from them since the hurricane down there in 2014, sure hope she's ok
we have a saying in our group when preforming the cakes and ale ceremony, and that's is, "We are not here to worship the Gods but to become the Gods" for thou art God, thou art Goddess"

We are 'God'.

Indeed

[GhostRider]

I hope people will excuse me but I don't have the sense of humor to be God. Omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence is too heavy a work load to wake up to on Monday morning. That's doubly true on Monday's that follow a weekend of Godless debauchery. I'll just happily practice the Craft and try to remember how much I have to learn and how much wisdom I still need to develop.

[Florenna]

I know this is an old topic, but I just wanted to say that Xiao Rong's starting post was incredibly helpful & insightful (especially for a newcomer on this site; having considered myself more or less an Atheist for most of my life, and having in the past myself criticised people who believe in nonsense that can't be seen (those of Abrahamic religions), I'm now a bit torn especially for my great interest and belief in magick... ). Thank you!

Oh, super dull! That's why I didn't stick with it; I've always grown up craving ritual and magic, wanting it to be real even if I couldn't believe in it at the time. However, I will say (as I mentioned above) that there are people who find that they don't need anything more than science, because it already opens up so much wonder and mystery in just the complexity of the universe, that gods seem unnecessary.

I used to be one of those; and I'd even say that I consider it much more dull having been raised in a "habitually Christian" household (not sure if that's actually a proper term in English, as it's in my local language, but I'm sure people know what I mean - those who are members of a church but don't really practice it or have any beliefs affecting everyday life, so nominally Christian but in practice quite secular) - of course it's easy to say, not having had the experience myself, but I do feel I'd have taken a hardcore Atheist parent over that any day

[Shekinah]

It be fine to be Atheist and so much more thoughtful then being one of the Abrahamic religions mindless lemmings. When coming in tune with Nature and experiencing enlightenment and a sense of oneness with the Cosmos even we Atheists feel the presence of a conscious presence (Spirit) wafting throughout creation. "Our true nature lives, as perfect as an unwritten number, everywhere at once across space and time" (Jonathan Livingston Seagull) Collectively we are this Spirit call it what we will. From Hermes: "We must be bold to say that an earthly being is a mortal God and that the heavenly Gods are immortal beings"

[Purpledove]

A well written piece I must say. I'm still wondering how I stumbled upon this amazing forum.

[StanLily]

Just doing a little bit of reading here. Only page one so far, but it seems that I'm a pantheistic animist, which I feel fits me quite well.

[Ellis Asher]

New guy here who nevertheless wishes to join the conversation. My word, we have a whole lot of intellect in the room. If I thought I had to know more (next to nothing) I would be mortally intimidated. Now, to my point.

My first step was to address the two limitations to being a witch in the old (with emphasis on old) testament. Um, it's the old testament. The new testament boiled down to it's simplest form is that there's a new and better deal for us. I am not constrained by the old testament. At most, it's context for the enormity of the new deal.

God, or my God is neither male or female but rather the one entity that desires relationship. When I am in my element I do pray to nature or the universe without being constrained by the notion that I can only worship one thing. The universes. Inside us and out, is too big and wonderful to limit any form of marvel.

So, I guess what I desire is to form my own special, thoughtful, meaningful method of worshipping the now and perhaps creating a magical process to enhance my every effort.

All constructive criticism will be appreciated.

[birublackzoey]

Most entities are not Gods, and even if they are, they are only perceived as "more" by us.

For me, there is nothing more powerful that Life itself, as a channel to Intelligent Design /Divinity.

Keep in mind, that we are only using human language (english) to describe it, to give it a form to help our own understanding.

What it truly is, is more than what we can know or describe. I think this is the only intellectual gymnastic here.

In the end, this is the Alpha and Omega for me. The Father, and The Mother.

Some might be tempted to call it the ultimate God, but for me, there is no need.

Life / Universe / Divinity trumps all known "gods" - and in many ways forms the foundational belief of what we know as paganistic or animistic beliefs.

[Old Soul]

A Very Quick Introduction to Non-Deity-Centered Paganism

I’ve seen at least one or two relative newcomers to the forum ask about if they can be pagan if they don’t believe in gods or goddesses, or what the relation is between paganism and science. I hope to address at least a few of these questions here, since I sincerely believe that Paganism is a very all-encompassing umbrella with room for a lot of different ideas on divinity and supernaturalism.

To begin with, I’d like to share a model of Paganism by John Halstead, the Allergic Pagan. He posits that [url=http://www.patheos.com/blogs/allergicpagan/2012/05/23/the-three-or-more-centers-of-paganism/]Paganism has different “centers”[/url]: Deity-Centered, Earth-Centered, and Self-Centered. Deity-Centered is fairly straightforward, comprised of Pagans who worship a Goddess, God, or goddesses and gods. Earth-Centered folks revere nature and seek to connect with the natural world. Finally, the Self-Centered group desires to transform the individual spiritually and psychologically, perhaps by seeking to unite with the greater divine “One” (it does NOT mean that people who fall in this group are selfish, necessarily). Later, Halstead added a fourth center of Paganism, “Community-Centered”, where people participate in Paganism because they enjoy the community, or because their family practices Paganism.

Very few people only devote themselves to one center of paganism only; most people can probably easily identify with two. Many people find themselves a mix of all four. But what I’d like to call to attention in this post is people who don’t find themselves particularly attracted to the Deity-Centered aspect of paganism, or perhaps don’t believe in the supernatural in the traditional sense.

Alternative Conceptions of the Divine

Some people may be uncomfortable with more traditional notions of deities (without getting into a big theological debate, I’m going to characterize this very broadly as an external supernatural being who has powers over this realm and who may or may not want to be worshipped). Many Pagans turn to Paganism precisely because they are uncomfortable with, or have never seen proof of, these supernatural beings but were demanded to “have faith” in them by an organized religion. But simply because we don’t believe in the concrete existence of deities doesn’t mean that we cannot find other ways of seeking and appreciating divinity and the sacred in the world. Pagans have many alternate ways to relate to the divine, and I’m going to list just a few of them (none of which are mutually exclusive):

Animism: The belief that natural physical entities, such as rocks, trees, and streams, have some kind of spiritual essence worthy of respect (how intelligent this spiritual essence varies depending on your belief); this was a fairly common belief among ancient religions.

Monism: The belief that everything has a single source, or a divine essence that underlies all things

Pantheism: The belief that everything in the universe put together is Goddess/God/the Divine, or that the universe is identical to Goddess/God/the Divine. Pantheism does not hold that the Divine is personal, or anthropomorphic (i.e. takes the form of a human).

Panentheism: The belief that the Goddess/God/the Divine is a part of everything in the universe, but also extends beyond the universe (panentheism means “God is in the world”)

Soft Polytheism: The idea that the gods may be aspects of a single divine spirit or essence, personifications of natural forces, or psychological archetypes (as opposed to hard polytheism, which holds that gods are each distinct, supernatural beings that have an independent existence from us)

Naturalism: The belief that there are no supernatural causes in the universe, only natural ones, and that science is the best route to understanding these natural causes

Atheism: A rejection of the belief in deities, or the belief that no deities exist.

Humanism: A philosophy and ethical stance that emphasizes the experience and agency of human beings, usually over the supernatural.


Why Paganism?

Here's just a small list of reasons off the top of my head why Paganism may be right for you, even if you do not believe in the literal existence of deities:

- Because you draw inspiration from the spiritual practices of ancient traditions such as the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Norse, Celts, Indians, etc.

- Because you find mythology from the ancient world powerful and meaningful, even if not literally true

- Because you want to celebrate ancient gods and goddesses, perhaps not as literal beings but as a kind of poetic homage to the greater Divine

- Because you are inspired by an earth- and nature-based religion, which celebrates the natural rhythms of the moon and sun and cares deeply for the environment and nature

- Because you follow Pagan ethics

- Because your family or culture has a traditional witchcraft tradition that you are interested in practicing

- Because you are interested in a spirituality that ties you to where you live and the earth around you

- Because you want to practice magic or witchcraft

- Because you grew up in a Pagan family or environment and you would like to continue carrying on the tradition

- Because you experience awe and wonder at the beauty and complexity of the universe -- the natural is already pretty amazing by itself, without needing the supernatural

- Because you are interested in a spirituality which honors the sacred in the feminine equally with the masculine

- Because pagan rituals are interesting, powerful, effective, and fun



Suggested Readings

[url=http://www.patheos.com/blogs/themediawitches/2013/06/adventures-of-a-non-deist-or-why-i-dont-believe-in-the-gods/]Adventures of a Non-Deist, or Why I Don’t Believe In The Gods[/url] - thank you, Frozenlight, for viewtopic.php?f=14&t=26212 [url=http://everythingunderthemoon.net/forum/interesting-article-indeed-belief-lack-gods-t26212.html]bringing this to our attention[/url]!

[url=http://humanisticpaganism.com/]Humanistic Paganism[/url], a blog about integrating naturalism and Paganism (it makes for a confusing blog name, but it’s a great blog!). While naturalists hold that there is no evidence for supernatural forces in the universe and that science is the best way to understand our world, Pagan myth, ritual, and meditation is nevertheless incredibly powerful psychologically

[url=http://www.patheos.com/blogs/allergicpagan/about-john-halstead/]The Allergic Pagan[/url], my personal favorite Pagan blog, where John Halstead writes extensively about Jungian Neopaganism and the numinous power of archetypes (among many other things)

Atheopaganism, a spiritual path that explores the awe and wonder of the universe outside the context of deities. This blogger also outlines 13 Principles of Atheopaganism and many non-theistic rituals.

[url=http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=ukgb2&c=trads&id=14613]Talking to the Gods as an Atheist Pagan[/url], by Amber Magpie

An Atheist’s Magical Practice in Detail by the Spiritual Atheist Witch. [EDIT = blog post had been removed] Is it possible to practice magic even if you don’t believe in supernatural forces? (spoiler: yes!!)

[url=http://www.patheos.com/blogs/panmankey/2013/06/interview-with-an-atheist-pagan/]Interview with an Atheist Pagan[/url]

[url=http://semrys.blogspot.com/2012/12/pagan-atheists-yes-we-exist.html]Pagan Atheists - Yes, We Exist[/url], in which Stifyn Emrys explains how atheist pagans like himself experience marvel and wonder at nature, in lieu of believing in deities

The Care and Feeding of Your Atheist Pagan [EDIT= Post evaporated] a post directed mainly towards theistic Pagans about how not to alienate and marginalize non-theistic Pagans, and does a great job of dispelling many myths about atheistic pagans along the way.

I am sure there are many more, but these are just the ones I’ve found particularly helpful. Please feel free to chime in the comments with more suggested reading material!

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Anyways, for all you Pagans who are struggling to reconciling Pagan practices and lack of belief or interest in the gods, I hope you find this very short introduction to be helpful. If you’d like to discuss this further, please feel free to discuss or comment below or PM me. Wishing you many blessings on your spiritual explorations!

This is a very, very good post! I really like it. I will read later full but so far it's brilliant.