Origins of witch craft

[Newbiewitch94]

So watching AHS coven and while I know a lot of it is made UPI know a lot of it is true too. So did witch craft originate from voodoo? Sorry if I've asked in the wrong place I wasn't sure where exactly to post this.

[SpiritTalker]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? It depends on the culture. I believe Shamanism was probably the root, and present on the Eurasian continent, as it was also on the African continent and Americas, and everywhere mankind has sprouted. Shamanism isn't voodoo any more than it is wicca. The cultures change and the magical system evolves. Where cultures are slowER to advance the magical system retains more of it's similarity to shamanic roots. Since mankind didn't start in one place and crawl across the planet, but actually simultaneously sprouted in at least three different human species, each environment evolved differently in different conditions and either merged or one species overpowered another. Which scenario hasn't been agreed on. And with people comes magic. It's in our blood and bones, IMO. There is no one "The Craft" but rather a hotchpotch with hundreds of cultural differences. A poor comparison is Christianity in which God alone knows how many denominations exist. The comparison is poor bcs Christianity has a basic common text that our Craft doesn't imitate, rooted in a single mesopotamian culture, again unlike our craft which is everybody else the Abrahamic cultures bumped into, all lumped together. "Witch Craft" only became defined as a heresy against Christianity. The practice was always there, for good or bad. Again, IMO.

[Newbiewitch94]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? It depends on the culture. I believe Shamanism was probably the root, and present on the Eurasian continent, as it was also on the African continent and Americas, and everywhere mankind has sprouted. Shamanism isn't voodoo any more than it is wicca. The cultures change and the magical system evolves. Where cultures are slow to advance the magical system retains more of it's similarity to shamanic roots. Since mankind didn't start in one place and crawl across the planet, but actually simultaneously sprouted in at least three different human species, each environment evolved differently in different conditions and either merged or one species overpowered another. Which one hasn't been agreed on. And with people comes magic. It's in our blood and bones, IMO. There is no one "The Craft" but rather a hotchpotch with hundreds of cultural differences. A poor comparison is Christianity in which God alone knows how many denominations exist. The comparison is poor bcs Xny has a basic common text that our Craft doesn't imitate, rooted in a single culture, again unlike our craft which is everybody else lumped together.

That's a excellent point
I suppose I can understand the idea that voodoo came first and witch craft came after especially because from the research I've done British witch craft can find its origins in the druids but then one could argue who taught the druids.
I mean if people can't agree on the origins of Wicca some claim that while it was officially called that by
Gardner some say it existed before the 1950s, then finding out intimation on did witch craft come from voodoo would be extremely difficult to say the least.

[SpiritTalker]

I'm sayin' Voodoo and Witchcraft have the same root, so neither one was first but both emerged in different cultures. The common WC we recognize was defined by the Catholic church as a heresy, a set of beliefs "other" than that of the Church that evolved from Abrahamic culture. The actual Practice of the Craft is as old as humanity.

[Newbiewitch94]

Oops sorry guess I misunderstood.
I am honestly considering learning more about voodoo just because it interests me even though it's not the path for me.

[SpiritTalker]

Yea, it's all pretty interesting. I think there are a few discussions on voodoo, or rather Houdon around the forum under folk magic. I reread what I wrote...geez, I can sound like such a snooty old cow when I'm trying to be as accurate with words as I can.

Odd, but your comment on voodoo preceding WC is the 2nd comment I've come across since yesterday. The other was Ryan Espich on you tube. He was rather miffed and POd & flat out said no way...and a few less than printable comments.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

From two posts , on another site I made , regarding the
Faery Tradition , and Witchcraft...realize Lore , is Oral
Tradition , passed down , mouth to ear...stories , songs...

Book is Written Tradition...

Included in the first post , is an excerpt by Jack Parsons ,
with credit and link to where it is posted...

The second has a link to a transcribed talk by Dolores Ashcroft - Nowiki...

Which has permission to link to it...

There are many stories of those who have informed humans...

Some have been called Watchers , Nephilim , Giants gone before...

Different cultures , different stories...some of those of Otherworlds ,
or of cultures disappeared before the first shamen here , this time round the wheel...

I just know how one can get it direct...from what some call Spirit Helpers...

Here are the posts , and links...

There is much Written about the Faery

And then there is Lore

This is the difference between those of the book

and those of the lore...

In the Code :

Book = 340

Lore = 340

For now , I shall pass on some Lore

Let me use the Code , to show you the Magic

I Am = 21

Arts = 270

Of = 150

Faery = 327

= 768

Now , we have an arrangement of two columns

of eight symbols each ,

thus multiplied , a grid of 64 pairs

of symbols

Yet , if we add one to eight inclusive

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8

= 36

Which in Obri / Hebrew , is either God or Goddess

( another arrangement equals Lord And Lady )

Yet , what we have is a color grid

Violet to Black

with eight shades of each

And the Blue column has a numerical value of 767

Which is the value for Arts Of Faery

Yet , as well , it equals :

Temporal = 74

Ability = 62

To = 61

Fold = 305

Spacetime = 265

= 767

( For that matter , it also equals Spice , as in Dune )

More ?

Refer to my thread on Raising Blue Fire and Ritual

Now , if we take another arrangement , the sum is 2636

Arts Of Faery = 747

Wietchcrreayafth = 682

And = 44

Theaantherrea = 682

To Heal = 62

Renew = 312

Change = 108

( Witchcraft and Tantra in our Faery Tongue )

How old is our Old Tradition ?

No time on the Otherside

Yet , here ?

Let us let Jack Parsons speak of it...

Someone well worth looking into...

The Witchcraft

John Whiteside Parsons
(excerpt from Freedom is a Two-Edged Sword)

WE ARE THE WITCHCRAFT. We are the oldest organization in the world. When man was born, we were. We sang the first cradle song. We healed the first wound, we comforted the first terror. We were the Guardians against the Darkness, the Helpers on the Left Hand Side. Rock drawings in the Pyrenees remember us, and little clay images, made for an old purpose when the world was new. Our hand was on the old stone circles, the monolith, the dolmen, and the druid oak. We sang the first hunting songs, we made the first crops to grow; when man stood naked before the Powers that made him, we sang the first chant of terror and wonder. We wooed among the Pyramids, watched Egypt rise and fall, ruled for a space in Chaldea and Babylon, the Magian Kings. We sat among the secret assemblies of Israel, and danced the wild and stately dances in the sacred groves of Greece.

In China and Yucatan, in Kansas and Kurdistan we are one. All organizations have known us, no organization is of us; when there is too much organization we depart. We are on the side of man, of life, and of the individual. Therefore we are against religion, morality and government. Therefore our name is Lucifer. We are on the side of freedom, of love, of joy and laughter and divine drunkenness. Therefore our name is Babalon.

Sometimes we move openly, sometimes in silence and in secret. Night and day are one to us, calm and storm, seasons and the cycles of man, all these things are one, for we are at the roots. Supplicant we stand before the Powers of Life and Death, and are heard of these Powers, and avail. Our way is the secret way, the unknown direction. Our way is the way of the serpent in the underbrush, our knowledge is in the eyes of goats and of women.

It is our own force that sometimes shifts jeweled coils and [...] mighty pinions in the breast of man; our Power is one with the Power that causes the God to stir in the heart of the seed, and the bud to burst into blossom and fruit; and whenever a man and a woman are united in one substance, our power is that substance.

Merlin was of us, and Gawain and Arthur, Rabelais and Catullus, Gilles de Retz and Jehanne d'Arc, De Molensis, Johannes Dee, Cagliostro, Francis Hepburn and Gellis Duncan, Swinburne and Eliphas Levi, and many another bard, Magus, poet, martyr known and unknown that carried our banners against the enemy multiform and ubiquitous, the Church and the State. And when that vermin of Hell that is called the Christian Church held all the West in a slavery of sin and death and terror, we, and we alone, brought hope to the heart of man, despite the dungeon and the stake.

II.

We are the Witchcraft, and although one may not know another, yet we are united by an indissoluble bond. And when the high wild cry of the eagle sounds in your mind, know that you are not alone in your desire for freedom. And when the howl of the wolf echoes in the forests of your night, know that there are those who also prowl. And when the ways of your fellows about you seem the ways of idiocy and madness, know that there are also others who have seen and judged - and acted.

Now know that the power that we serve lies in the heart of every man and woman as the tree lives in the seed. And to be with us, you have but to call upon that Power, and you are as one of us. And when our Power and Joy have come upon you, you may go forth and do your will among men, and none shall say you nay. And if it be your will, you shall do your will secretly, and if it be your will, you will do your will openly, as your will.

Therefore lift up your hearts saying, "I am a man" or "I am a woman, and the Power of Life is mine!" And in the Power of Life you shall live and love, accepting no restriction and placing no restriction, freely and granting freedom. And it may be in the bounty of life you shall see the love of life shine in the eyes of another, and the lust of life burn upon his brow, and thus you shall take great joy together. And it may be in good fortune you may find a number such; and share your joy in secret feasting and rejoicing and all manner of lovemaking and festival. Or it may be that at hazard and danger you will teach the joyous power to men; as your wills move you.

And this is well so long as you remember one thing. There can be no restriction. The Power of Life is not restricted; it knows its own way, but no mind knows that way. Therefore in yourself practice all the giving and taking of freedom that is consistent with life, for thereby alone can you remain in our joy.

Pain is. Terror is, loss and loneliness and agony of heart and spirit, even unto Death. For this is the gateway to the kingdom of Pan.

Our way is not for all men. There are those who are so constricted and sick in themselves that the thought of their own freedom is a horror, and that of others a fierce pain; so that they would enslave all men. And these you should shun, or, if you must, destroy them as you will know how, for this also is bounty.

Nor think the life power should manifest in those who have no trouble or turmoil, for these may be mere dumb cattle, innocents out of season. Rather does the power often show the most where conflict rages, since at any time, and especially in a false civilization, the way must be won through. Surrender is disaster. The other side of the coin is a song in the sunlight and a dance in the moonlight, where all mists are dispersed. But the way must be won.

http://web.archive.org/web/200502041225 ... craft.html

And This Is Our Way

Given By Those Of The Otherside

I could speak of those known as the Blue Gods ,

Woad Be Me

But I shall , with a finger to my lips , leave things

simple for now

Questions ?

......................................................................................................................................



Greetings , I wanted to offer you this post from another site , from someone well versed in

Craft and Lore...She is mostly correct , in her knowledge , and understanding , and she is

one of the true elders in the pagan community...

Yet , I know things , from "being grabbed by the spirits , and initiated directly" , as a Native

elder said to me , she does not...

Read it , and see what you think...

By the way , keep in mind when you read her article...

Faerie + Fayaerri = 755( Our names specific to Underworld and Aboveworld Faery)

In Hebrew : 755 = Emanations , Numbers , Spheres( The Sephiroth )

And in runes if I take our Maiden Mother and Crone runes , and fit them together

with three others , they make the shape of the winged faery. , commonly used in art...

As well , their number value , is 755...

Further , the name "Tinkerbell" = 755

So , the winged fairy , was a symbol for , by number , and image , the union

of Upperworld Fayaerri , and Underworld Faerie , thus forming the mindset of

middle world Fairy , commonly known today...

Here is the link...

http://www.servantsofthelight.org/knowl ... tradition/

( I can link it , not post the article )

By the way...

In our Tradition , and by the ancient language code...

Fae = 681

By old spelling :

Wietchcrreayafth = 682

As did Theeaanthrrea = 682

And thus , The Witchcraft that Jack Parsons speaks of , in his work :

"Freedom Is A Double Edged Sword"

How do I know that ?

Our mother column of eight symbols makes the shape ,

fit together , of a double edged sword...*smiles*

Just like I stayed at a hostel in Eugene Oregon when I first got there...

And a woman from India ran the place...

She asked me what I did , and I told her one of the things I did , was

teach Tantra...and she looked at me , smiled and the exact words were :

"Oh , so you practice the Old Witchcraft...lol...

So Fae meant one who practiced the Arts of Faery...

Witchcraft and Tantra...

Now , as far as Fay...

To be Fay , was to be between worlds , a human half in and half out of both worlds...

Just to offer information from my Faery Tradition...

Do not trust modern etymology...

Mostly , they have no real knowledge of the origin of words ,

because the first language , was brought from the Otherside...

The gift which can be a blessing , or curse...

*Fayoh Os Ret Oinn An Seal Os Leguu Os Eel An , Eel Os Ur , Mann Eel Fayoh Ret Is An Naid Dea Seal

*For We So Love You My Friends !





............................................................................................................................................
And , from another post I made , about Raising Blue Fire ,
the Faery Tree of 11 dimensions , and Ritual...

............................................................................................................................................

Two of the symbols , in the tree , corresponding to

the level of the Underworld , make a word , when fit

together :

One is pronounced "Assk" but can as well be "Ash"...

The other is an "E" letter value...

So we attain the word "Ashe"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ase_%28Yoruba%29

It is said to be the life force permeating the universe...

Given as a gift , by the "gods"...

Things that make you go hmmm...

............................................................................................................................................

And Voodoo , can be intimately linked to the Yoruba Tradition...

So , perhaps , as some say...Faery Magic , is the oldest , and
the root and origin , of all other Craft and Magic...

Look into Melek Taus , the Blue God of the Yezidi and Feri Tradition...

Many linkages...much to ponder...

[Newbiewitch94]

Indeed it seems like all forms of the craft are linked. I'll be honest it doesn't bother me if witch craft cane after voodoo, it just shocked me how that was said in AHS because normally shows about witches generally tend to follow the line of witches and practice of the craft always being around.

[Lord_of_Nightmares]

As the first reply said shamanism is where witchcraft started to form. Witchcraft being a negative attribute occurred much earlier than Abrahamic texts. (Maqlu Babylonian texts for example. Abrahamic religion is from paganism and never existed in a vacuum.) It is recently THAT witchcraft has a more positive image thanks largely in part to Wicca.

Since witchcraft in the modern sense has many definitions, and not everyone will give you the same answer, the term is quite broad to a range of occult practices.

[Newbiewitch94]

Thanks for that. I will admit while I do know a decent amount about British witch craft for example like how actual practioners of black magick so to speak were rare.