Questions of a hopeful skeptic

[Becks]

Hi Wizzid, I'm sure some folks will be along to maybe start to weigh in on some of these topics. They are good and engaging questions. I do notice that it is a bit of a monster post to get through and your wonderings cover many broad topics. It would be really helpful for folks if you would consider breaking them up and starting threads in the appropriate sections of the board. They may be a bit more bite-sized and searchable at a later date. Potentially they could be used to benefit others with similar 'wonderings'. Specific titles would help them to be more accessible, engaging and easy to find.

I also will urge you to head over to the introduction section and tell us a bit about you. We love to get to know people a bit before we jump in. I love a questioning mind-that's awesome! Being a skeptic also a good thing. Nothing wrong with that.

[corvidus]

Maybe some would even consider it a kind of science, who knows. I wonder, would some people find that offensive?
Anyway, in pursuit of enough proof for me to believe this kind of thing, here I am, with a bunch of questions.

First off, random forum answers will never prove reality for you. You will personally have to walk the path to see what works, what doesnt, and to see who is making all their 'stuff' up.

That being said, the approach to the occult is very scientific. However rather than studying physical, manifest reality, it's a study of ideas and concepts. Very 'philosophic'. Instead of the scientific method, the occultists (those with secrets) use deductive and inductive logical reasoning -- at least, they should.

They deduce things from the natural world, then induce them into their formula or ritual. In the most mundane explanation, it's hacking and tricking or reprogramming the brain.

So yeah. If you're genuinely curious, buy a beginners book that appeals to you and start walking.

[Lord_of_Nightmares]

First things first: I'm not trying to be condescending. I totally respect all this stuff, I just don't know very much about it and I might come off as a little rude. Sorry!

I call myself a hopeful skeptic because, well, some of this stuff is a little hard to believe, for me, but I really do hope that it works. It'd answer a lot of things, and it'd help us know more about the universe if it was accepted as a legitimate thing by more people. I think it'd be great for the human race to be able to document these things, and get as much info on it as there is on thinks like modern science. Maybe some would even consider it a kind of science, who knows. I wonder, would some people find that offensive?
Anyway, in pursuit of enough proof for me to believe this kind of thing, here I am, with a bunch of questions.

Stuff humans can do that we didn't think they could
I've done a lot of reading about the supernatural powers that some possess, and some of it is hard to believe for me. Materialization? But where does all that matter come from? It seems a little too farfetched for me, even if there are videos of it in action.

Can you elaborate? To my knowledge this is impossible.

And then, other powers, like Astral Projection, Telekenesis, Aura stuff, all those things listed here, what proof do we have of this, other than grainy videos and "trust me it worked ok"? I'm not trying to be condescending, but I really would like to know more about this. Have experiments been conducted? Could experiments even be conducted? If we didn't all live across the different corners of the globe, perhaps some of us could come together and do a few experiments, you know?

There is no proof and a lot is bunk or illusions. However, some people have had experiences or believe in it. This is not testable data. It falls under "UPG" or "unverified personal gnosis". UPG is not considered "fact" by any means and if anyone claims this as fact, I think it is healthy to meet them with skepticism.

Things that exist that that people don't think exist
I've hear a lot about faeries and things. What is there to know about this? I think, they live in another plane parralel to ours? Some are better at seeing them than others, right? Can we communicate with them? What other supernatural creatures are there, that I don't know about? I maybe heard a tiny bit about gnomes, maybe elves. Or maybe wherever I heard that was wrong, who knows? Are there the more "extreme" supernatural beings, like, maybe, vampires or something? Or is that just hollywood doing its thing?

I am not sure how you are compiling your data, but you can go by folklore or mythology. There are beings such as yokai, asura, dark fae (yes they exist.) known as "pooka", demons, etc. I mean, hell, I named myself after Lilith who does not have a positive mythology until modern times.

But what anyone believes in is very subjective. I don't necessarily believe every religious/spiritual claim, nor do I believe in every benevolent thing nor malevolent thing or claims about them. I have very subjective reasons for believing this way which may not match up with others here who have their own personal conclusions about the supernatural.

As I said before though, any claims of communication or experience with such things falls under UPG. It is NOT a scientific fact and oft times is not testable either.

Energies and stuff
Okay I have no idea about any of this, so much so that I don't really have many questions, other than "please tell me everything". Do they manifest themselves without any outside input? Do beings such as ourselves give them off, through emotions or similar? Can we bring them in with spells? And can we remove them? If so, where do they go? Can we see it, measure it? Can some people train their eyes to see them?

Define "energy".

I mean UPG is extremely individual and subjective, even among groups. (Which is then shared personal gnosis or SPG, some say this gives more credence to it being a "fact" but in reality it is still a UPG, just a different type.)

Such beings are believed to manifest themselves without being summoned or outside input, yes. Yes, we can feed them with our emotions and we can supposedly bring them with our spells and remove them. If they leave they probably go back to the otherworld wince they came from. No we cannot measure it and yes supposedly some are trained to see them.

Some people believe though, all rituals, magic, and gods etc are just psychological and we do it to benefit ourselves psychologically even if they do not exist and that such things do not have an actual existence, rather they call come from the mind. This is more of a secular view of such things.

Spells
So, what is there about this kind of thing? I'm guessing there aren't strict outlines for spells, but they usually follow a loose-ish pattern. Are altars required? Or can you just put down a circle and cast spells wherever? One big thing I've thought about a lot is, a lot of the spells I've seen don't have a visible outcome, other than, supposedly, the hand of fate shifts and stuff plays out differently. Are there spells which can create a physical, measurable effect? A spell which can prove it exists? Also, things like circles, reagents, altars, are any necessary at all for spellcasting, or can you do things like that with a few words and some meditation or something? Would that kind of casting require lots of training or meditation or something?

Different magical systems utilize different ways of casting spells. There is no one "correct" way. It is all about what works for you. I can't tell you what works for you, because what works for me may not work for you.

Wicca has it's own system which is based on ceremonial magic and you will notice that a lot of modern Western based occult systems are based on it. Other systems, such as in Asia, utilize different methods. Some magical systems require training and others do not; "real" Wicca, the initiation based kind, does have training. Neo-Wicca, which is what most people practice now is self-taught, for example. And you do not have to have fancy things or even altars.

As for a measurable physical effect, like I said earlier it is entirely subjective. You may perceive something as a physical effect that I cannot answer. My only advice is to experiment with it yourself to see if it works for you.

Some things have been proven true like hypnosis does work for some things scientifically, and so does certain kinds of meditation. (There were monks who were able to control their body temps in extreme conditions through meditation.) The power of the mind is wonderful. Don't forget that! :wink2:

Stereotype stuff
You don't actually ride broomsticks do you? I thought that was just a metaphor for the devil's... something. I feel as if that's just history and hollywood making everything a joke. Same with pointy hats.

Unless we're playing Quidditch then no.

The old adages about witches comes from European folklore, not Hollywood. Hollywood is just basing it off of existing folklore. If you read up on witches and things like Baba Yaga you'll see it goes way back. Same with demons and vampires and things. Hollywood usually twists the stories but the motifs tend to be the same. (Such as vamps being undead, and men turning into werewolves.)

[HopefulChild]

Hi, Wizzid.

Here are a few threads you may be interested in for these forums as well.
http://everythingunderthemoon.net/forum ... 22242.html

http://everythingunderthemoon.net/forum ... 26933.html

There are a lot of great threads in this forum, and you may find as you start reading that there are many Scientists who are on these forums. I count myself among that group. Because at my core, I am a scientist.
Read threads by Seraphin Murmur as well. He has an uncanny ability to translate "spirituality" into modern scientific terms that make it easier to digest.

A lot of the concepts that you may continue to bump into in magic discussion can be expressed and understand best by a 2004 Research Paper done by the US Air Force. The link to that is below.
https://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf


Nearly all of the research I'm doing on Magic centers around the concept that ancient people even paleolithic people, were able to witness quantum mechanical phenomena at some point in the real world and on occasion they were able to repeat results without completely understanding how and so the roots of magic came into being.

Here is the most important thing I can tell you. Aurthur C Clarke - "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Right! So in my very humble opinion, discussions of magic really are discussions about how to access the building blocks of the universe without using advanced technology as an intermediary.

If you don't consider the fundamental buildings blocks of reality a "sufficiently advanced technology", then why is it that we don't already know it all? On the scale of Known versus unknown, we as a species know very little.

I would also say that (this place) as it is, is not a place of answers. It is a place for discussion and fuel for contemplation and a starting point for independent research, by like minded explorers!

Have fun, and never stop learning.

[Kassandra]

...you may find as you start reading that there are many Scientists who are on these forums. I count myself among that group. Because at my core, I am a scientist...Aurthur C Clarke - "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."...discussions of magic really are discussions about how to access the building blocks of the universe without using advanced technology as an intermediary.

These comments really resonate with me, and I am interested in reading that Airforce pdf when I get the chance, HopefulChild. Thanks for the link.


I think having the spirit of a scientist when practicing magic is a great point. You start with a hypothesis of where you want to go with it, a certain result. Sometimes you achieve it, sometimes you don't. There are no guarantees, yet at the same time, with practice one develops a familiarity, so a certain amount of expectation of outcome is reasonable. And like a scientist, you might want to change certain variables: "I used this last time, but what if I substituted it with this this time, what would happen?" Wizzid, if someone answered all your questions all the time, where would your sense of discovery be, where would your inner scientist be? You have to just do in order to learn.

Beyond a science-y mindset, it's also interesting to perhaps consider a culinary mindset. A lot of spells have ingredients (you will see witches who don't use ingredients too, or that use very little ingredients, but for the sake of my little analogy here, we'll go with ingredients, lol). Book of Shadows could be looked at as a cookbook. After you learn the basics of a recipe, and cook it a couple times, then the real fun begins: you start improvising, adding/subtracting different ingredients, adjusting other aspects of the reciple/spell. As in cooking, so also in magic, you personalize your approach. But again, how is your personal power going to develop if you look to others to explain to you the science behind the efficacy of your magic? It's best you arrive at that by doing.

Also, most witches I know look at magic as one part of a larger lifestyle. From that vantage point, it ain't all about the spells, how energy works, splitting this hair or that. Energy work is merely a tool of manifestation. But there are larger rhythms in all existence to be considered, cycles. There are beginnings/in-between times/endings that most witches honor, whether seasons, the start and ending of some endeavor or project, etc. They are concerned with cleansing spaces, healing themselves or others. From this perspective, the question then isn't "how does magic work?" but larger, more relevant questions might be, "Who am I? Why am I here? What am I here to do? How will I do that? ...And where and how does magic fit into this larger picture?" From this perspective, energy work is not an end in itself, but a means to an end, a part of the journey.

Finally, from a cognitive standpoint, it might help not to look at magic from an intellectualized, "gimme all the answers right now!" approach, and it may be more productive and interesting to look at it from a more right-brained, creative approach (like playing an instrument, or singing a song). Schools beat the creativity out of us, bleach the natural magic out of us so that we are manila-envelope hive bees, originality not allowed. It trains us that it is desirable to approach things in a left-brained way, to better our chances of somehow "getting a job" (because that is the only goal of governments who want you to be the taxpayer it needs in order to run). Magic, however, deconstructs that paradigm. It appeals to the creativity in us, consults with that lively Inner Child we have, who, to me, ever remains the real magician inside us.

At least you're a hopeful skeptic, that's good.




.

[SpiritTalker]

Remote viewing is testable using random map coordinates of targets in sealed envelopes. the envelopes aren't opened until after the viewing session, which provides a double blind. the experimenters then visit the target location in person and see how close they got it.

When I was in college in the 1970's, a group of us had telepathy nights in which we rotated who was Sender and the rest were Receivers. On Tuesday evenings at 9PM (a day and time we were all available) we all concentrated for 30 minutes. The Sender got to choose what image, phrase, piece of music or activity to send and the rest of us read it. On the following weekend we would meet and compare notes. We were in school in four different cities.

I remember one night we all shared a dream, but each had a different part of it. At our weekend summit we discovered the shared dream. it was like a treasure hunt and each portion was continued by the next person. Road Trip! Only 2 of the group had cars and the rest paid gas. My part of dream was about midway through the list. It picked up at a Freeway crossing light and led to a roadside park. The next person's part started at the park, lead through a woods and stopped dead in a dried stream bed. We stood looking at each other and suddenly the last member tranced and ran, which was out of character for the person due to weight issues, along the stream bed with the rest of us following, then stopped and pointed through a clump of trees and shouted " It happened right there!" There was a house and this person was
pointing at a part of the lawn under a tree. Nobody was home so I left a note stuck in the screen door and we all went back to the cars, and out for ice-cream. In weeks that followed I received an answer to what had to be the weirdest note ever. I had to establish my bonafides and that I was not a nut case, although their family was still disputing that when the respondent wrote, but I learned that their grandfather had died under the tree about a month before the treasure
hunt dream. None of the party and ever met the people who lived in that house or even been to that part of the state before. make of it what you will. We concluded that our guides set up the dream and it was the spirit of the deceased
that led our tranced team member to the scene of his death.

[Lord_of_Nightmares]

Remote viewing is testable using random map coordinates of targets in sealed envelopes. the envelopes aren't opened until after the viewing session, which provides a double blind. the experimenters then visit the target location in person and see how close they got it.

When I was in college in the 1970's, a group of us had telepathy nights in which we rotated who was Sender and the rest were Receivers. On Tuesday evenings at 9PM (a day and time we were all available) we all concentrated for 30 minutes. The Sender got to choose what image, phrase, piece of music or activity to send and the rest of us read it. On the following weekend we would meet and compare notes. We were in school in four different cities.

I remember one night we all shared a dream, but each had a different part of it. At our weekend summit we discovered the shared dream. it was like a treasure hunt and each portion was continued by the next person. Road Trip! Only 2 of the group had cars and the rest paid gas. My part of dream was about midway through the list. It picked up at a Freeway crossing light and led to a roadside park. The next person's part started at the park, lead through a woods and stopped dead in a dried stream bed. We stood looking at each other and suddenly the last member tranced and ran, which was out of character for the person due to weight issues, along the stream bed with the rest of us following, then stopped and pointed through a clump of trees and shouted " It happened right there!" There was a house and this person was
pointing at a part of the lawn under a tree. Nobody was home so I left a note stuck in the screen door and we all went back to the cars, and out for ice-cream. In weeks that followed I received an answer to what had to be the weirdest note ever. I had to establish my bonafides and that I was not a nut case, although their family was still disputing that when the respondent wrote, but I learned that their grandfather had died under the tree about a month before the treasure
hunt dream. None of the party and ever met the people who lived in that house or even been to that part of the state before. make of it what you will. We concluded that our guides set up the dream and it was the spirit of the deceased
that led our tranced team member to the scene of his death.

Science is based on repeatable results. "Psychic" powers are either easily explained away; coincidence, not repeatable, inaccurate, and untestable. There for there is no evidence for them being real and anecdotal evidence is not evidence for "everyone".

This is why it falls under UPG or unverified personal gnosis. In your case, yours sounds like Shared Personal Gnosis.

[SpiritTalker]

I'm not a scientist. There is no evidence that I exist.